Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

[Oreo]

If anyone has any thoughts on the topic I'd love to hear them.

http://www.somender-singh.com/
(You have to register to get access to all the good pics. It's free & has a forum)



I've researched this guy Somender Singh a little. Don't let his website turn you off. I think he knows engines a little better then he knows marketing / propper gramatical english.

[Z63R]

From your link, sir...

Accelerated Laminar Total Clean Burn Combustion

ALTCBC improves " Torque & Power " through the entire operating range with lesser amounts of fuel.

"Remember the most important factor in increasing engine performance and efficiency is to create " maximum turbulence " in the compression chamber."--Engine Legend Pat Goodman

This Singh fellow is interesting and is well-motivated to be sure.

What I find cool about all this is that the 2.3 Duratec PZEV (the only Duratec I am more than familiar with) incorporates turbulence-generators to vastly reduce idle emissions. Tumble flaps, as they were previously known... now called "charge motion control" are external from the cylinder head.

I suppose, not having read much more than the first page on your link, that these "grooves" are to be milled into the combustion chamber of just about any conventinal internal-combustion engine. There was mention of some fairly radical efficiency increases with the now-ancient side-valve (flathead) engines, too.

I'd think that this is even more reason not to delete the tumble flaps on our engines...

I'll read more of his stuff in the next few days when I'm not so freaking tired from 12 hour days at work. :-)~

[Oreo]

[whyme]

he only mentioned 2 valve engines and did so specifically, with as little knowledge as i have on the subject i would find it difficult to believe that most of us have the resources or knowhow to do this or at least do this optimally. my concern would be over doing it and the fact that placement will probably have a key effect.

he claimed a decrease in peak but a longer more usable power band and increase in efficiency. I'm very interested in seeing side by side numbers with our engines.

nice find though.

[Oreo]

It is true that there seems to be much more on this subject regarding 2 valve heads. However, I did find one picture on his site of a typical pent-prizm, 4 valve design similar to our duratecs, with grooves applied.

Actually cutting the grooves sounds easy for anyone with the cahones to try it. He explains exactly where & how to place them.

I can also say that, similar to the pictures I posted above of the un-modified chamber's carbon deposit patern, I saw a similar carbon deposit patern in the D23 engine I tore down.

[jlhansen]

The carbon deposition would appear to me to be a problem. With the engine mods I did in the '60s and '70s, any defect in smoothness of the combustion chamber would add chances for detonation and dieseling.

That being said, however, these new emission-controlled engines behave completely differently from the old ones. I'm amazed at the things designers do now without causing problems. I keep coming back to the point that there seems to be a delicate balance between components and their interactions. I would wonder what part of the combustion formula would go wacky with a mod like that.

[Fredness]

MMmmmmmm full of conspiracy shroaded godness! Love it!!!!

[Oreo]

I'm apprehensive about posting my own explanation because I don't want to get it wrong- and the information is all out there if you search. But I'll try to cover it in a very small nutshell. Maybe it will keep this discussion going.

Basically, you want the charge to combust as fast as possible for the best power. This happens by creating turbulence in the cylinder as the charge burns, & also helps resist detonation. This is traditionally accomplished by "squish" or "quench" zones where the piston very nearly closes the gap to the head. As the charge squeezes out of these squish zones the jet of air causes turbulence.

Sommender Singh has devised a clever way to increase the turbulence in a controlled way. The animations I posted display the theoretical effect. The pictures I posted are supposed to show how the grooves took the combustion all the way to the cylinder wall. If you look on the cylinder without the grooves, on the squish pad there is an area near the cylinder wall where hardly any combustion was taking place. So he's claiming that his grooves cause a more complete burn of the entire charge- no unburnt charge hiding in the nooks & crannies as it were. Faster, more complete burn should equal more power.

But seriously... do some light reading on this stuff from a real source. There's quite a bit of complex stuff happening in there. You'd never even realize unless you actually did some research. It's one of the primary ways that our modern engines differ from older, more classic engines.

[jlhansen]

What I was referring to regarding carbon, apart from the detonation, is that it tends to fill in grooves and other irregularities in the chamber. I have never cracked the head on an engine newer than 1980, so I'm not sure what kind of problem carbon is now. In the older engines there is a coat of carbon that would nearly fill the end of the grooves and make the whole thing different than intended.

On the other hand, I don't see the black tailpipe residue on my Focus, so things might be different now.

The intake turbulence is definitely a well-documented desire and I've seen the gamut of intake treatments from polishing to not polishing to swirl-finishing to impeller installation to "tumble flap" installation. I'm sure it all comes down to what actually happens and how long it keeps happening. Any complex system is only as strong as the weakest link. If the weakest link is robust enough to last, then the system is a winner.

[Oreo]

This guy claims on his website that his grooves will not fill with carbon.

[jlhansen]

In retrospect, if the mixture velocity is sufficient to keep things moving, it might keep the deposits from happening. It would be fun to see happening, but I guess it's just one of those "try it" situations. You'll have to tell us how it works for you.

[STANG302]

I can see one major problem with this. The groved area in the head will create hot pockets that will eventualy become the start point for stress cracks. Other than that I like the theory.

[dead man walking]

yes it is a good theory but i would worry about the increased heat that the spark plugs showed and as stang 302 mentioned lets say i'm putting in a 1,200 mile drive as some times i do, i fear that the peaks will heat to a point that they act like glow plugs?!?

[pitchblack23]

It could be a wonderful mod. It could be snake oil. Flame front propogation is so complex that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying one way or the other without seeing the dyno tests myself.

[Oreo]

The magazine Popular Science wrote a big article on the guy. He did have it dyno-tested with a 5-gas analyzer. It's easy to find the article on Google. Maybe I'll post a link later, but I'm feeling lazy now.

[orionlion82]

this is interesting stuff.

i read up on it last night.

it sounds like a really touchy, fussy system.

like splitting the hairs of the narrow extremes of the most advanced thought were ALREADY got.

what i wanna know is if its so great -
why is it being used my the major manucacturers?
dont you think they test all the technology they can and use what works?

[orionlion82]

and on the man himself he sounds like a hypergreen free energy quack, and you would think a mind like that would do better?
maybe thats just how he chooses to market it but you cant do all things well i guess... i dont understand because you cant play to win like that...

[Oreo]

Originally Posted by orionlion82

why is it being used my the major manucacturers?
dont you think they test all the technology they can and use what works?

He's got a patent on the idea. So, the major manufacturers can't use it without his permission. But he wants a lot of money for using his ideas, and obviously, the auto manufacturers think there are less expensive solutions to their problems.

[pitchblack23]

Originally Posted by Oreo

He's got a patent on the idea. So, the major manufacturers can't use it without his permission. But he wants a lot of money for using his ideas, and obviously, the auto manufacturers think there are less expensive solutions to their problems.

There probably are. DISI is pretty good at creating turbulence in the cylinder, and a four-valve direct-injection head doesn't have a lot of space left for grooves.