Suzuki GSXR 750 quad Throttle Body Install on 2.3 L Duratec

[duggyd123]

hello there is somethign called time is money you figure this guy has atleast 50 hours in this if not more. the cosworth kit is only like 4000 for everything pistons cam etc. and there are all track tested so if he tests it there is more time. I dont know about yall but time is extremely valuable to me

[Egz]

Your time may be valuable to you, but to most of us, its a hobby, and we enjoy doing the work ourselves and making things from scratch. The oppurtunity cost is really low. If I wasn't working on a project like this, I probably would be watching TV or on the computer.

People enjoy the challange. I applaud his work, and am thankful of his thorough documentation on this project. If you rather spend the money on already made products, that's fine. But that doesn't make someone's own project any 'stupider'.

[Focus_wrc07]

Yes, this is true, and I agree with Egz. Back in the earlier days of racing, people made things work, and took the time to research/try swapping things from different motors back and forth, and fabbing their own stuff.

For instance, If I got two 302 heads, or two 351 heads, I could cut, and reweld them to make a performance based, but weak cylinder head for a 300 inline six. The only problem after fabbing the cylinder head, and having it somewhat weak at that, is the valves.

[whiskeytangofoxtrot]

This is one of the best projects I've ever seen on these forums, I check this thread every time I'm near a computer. Awesome work going on here.

[Focus_wrc07]

Whiskey, I'd have the agree with you on that. It is a great project, and he's very thorough about keeping documentation, and updates to us like has already been mentioned, and that's what I like about it.

I'm anticipating the final step, and seeing if it actually works.

[JohnStranahan]

There are still quite a few things to do. A good time question might be how much would it take me to get to the same spot if I got a second set of parts. Maybe 10 hours or less. Time spent watching TV is of no value. This is just a hobby. I don't have $4000 to spend on this project. Sure I spent a few hours more than that pondering where to drill my little vacuum holes, which used throttle body to buy etc, but I think I found good spots and a good part.

Things I need to aquire
an MAP/IAT sensor. This seems to be a dealer part. I will need one (or depending on cost) I will take the one off the car temporarliy to make a little Vacuum Accumulator with this sensor installed in it. I have seen some small steel fuel filters with mounting brackets and up to three fule lines (vacuum ports for me) that may work. the extra fittings can feed the stock ford vacuum system which purges the charcoal canister as well as run the many little vaccuum engine controls. The can will be inside the intake plenum for satisfactory function of the Intake Air temperature part of the sensor. This temperatrure sensing function is duplicated at the MAF. I would suspect the temp at the MAF is used more for control of mixture.

The extra inlet on the plenum will be covered by 1/8 inch ABS plate from a drain fitting.

I am waiting on a used plastic manifold.

I am still looking for the perfect glue or sealant that will stick forever to the Susuki ABS plastic intake.

Idle air is composed of three streams. PCV air that is metered by the PCV valve, Idle Air Motor Air, and Leakage past the throttle plate. The PCV system will work the best if it is pulled by idle vacuum as in the stock system. The Suzuki Intake Plenum has a fitting and foam filter for PCV. It might be best to use that and bleed a little more air past the throttle plates with the Suzuki idle screw. The filter seems to be a nice thing to have in this dirty air stream. This air could also be run through a fuel filter sized device filled with foam to keep the dirt and scum out of the throttle bodies. I have not decided yet. I am going to incorporate the idle air motor.
John

[dario14]

there is ways around the obd II inspections but those ways im not alowed to discuss here anyways I love what you trying to do man keep it up

[dario14]

have you heard of gorila glue is also sandeble when it compleatly dries

[Egz]

Originally Posted by JohnStranahan

I am still looking for the perfect glue or sealant that will stick forever to the Susuki ABS plastic intake.

I've used 3M Duramix products in the past with great success. Take a look a them.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...beDDC4KLKK5Wgl

[JohnStranahan]

Ah. Finally some help instead of resistance. Resistance is futile.

Thanks for the tips on glues. I like the Duramix in that it is semilflexible like the plastic. This is what I need. I like this product which is a two part glue. It always helps when it says for ABS. A web retailer would be nice, but I do have a Automotive paint contact near the house that may be able to order it.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MAutomotive/Aftermarket/Products/Product-Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECFTDQCEK3_nid=MTWG92XKQQgsD DC4KLKK5WglNQJMCJH1B8bl

I do have Gorilla glue. It will probably foam quite a bit in the spot I need it. The seam I plan to seal is on the inside of the case where I removed a long island for the stock Suzuki Air filter. The seam is sealed on the outside with copper RTV. RTV works better if it is held by two surfaces. I can use a layer of this semi rigid material to build up a flexible and strong smooth seam on the inside. I can also use this sealant around my 4 inch flanged inlet. I have a black plastic flanged inlet coming that has a little bit bigger flange. This will lead to a neater job on the corners when it is bolted up.

It used to be that people were proud of the hours that they spent on a pet project like a hot rod, restoration, cabinet, etc.

[Oreo]

What is a REAL shame here John, is that the only person I can think of who would really be able to offer good technical advice on your project... well that person started being a real jack-ass about a year and a half ago & has since been banned from FJ & gone into seclusion.

The rest of us will help the best we can... but you're really into uncharted territory with this project. Which is why it's so cool!

[JohnStranahan]

oreo-Thanks. I am only looking for small assistance once in a while to speed things up. Things are going fine. I found a Web Retailer for the Duramix Plastic mending product.

https://www.tcpglobal.com/ItemDetail...mNo=MMM%204240

What this product is going to do is increase the Durability of the Airbox which needs to remain sealed for the MAF to function properly. It has to be vibration resistant and also solidly mounted to the engine with the lower Manifold bolt and an upper mounting bolt to the head.

It seems that the SCT livelink which I saw operate once lets you monitor almost all the engine sensors on the lap top screen. I know that we looked at the MAF's temperature output and compared it to the MAP/IAT's output. I probably can bring up the stock manifold controls to see how they operate with RPM. I have a used laptop coming at Christmas for use here with the livelink.
The intake manifold runner control actually has a position feedback sensor built into the actuating vacuum motor. This output will help me decide what to actuate my secondary throttles with. Things are going to slow down a little now for the holidays and as I am waiting for parts to come in. I will be working on incorporating the idle air control valve and a MAP/IAT vacuum acumulator next.

I still need a used plastic manifold.

[Oreo]

I'm on it John. I'll pm you about it in the morning. Sorry it took me so long.

[JohnStranahan]

I used a hot air gun to soften the air box in the vicinity of the small copper 90's that will feed hot egr to the manifold fittings. I then applied pressure to the side of a rod with the drill press. This gave the copper 90's about 3/8-1/2 inch clearance on the airbox.


I found an ABS coupling for flat drain pipe at Lowes. I cut a piece of this 1/8 inch ABS to seal the unused end of the airbox intake. I may mount some of my sensors or the idle air Vacuum Valve here. Note you can also see the Suzuki intake air temperature sensor in this shot. If it is electrically compatible with the Ford computer I may use it instead of the temperature part of the Ford MAP/IAT. This will put the temp sensor ouside of the vacuum accumulator for faster response. I still don't know what the ford MAP/IAT unit looks like. The price is high and only available from the dealer.

[hotrodkris]

Grassroots tuning at it's best.

[JohnStranahan]

I thank you all for the positive comments. Here are a couple more pics.
The first shows the MAP/IAT plug. You can recognized it by the unused terminal. Also note there is a vacuum line that appears to feed this sensor. It looks this way on a schematic as well. It may not require a can at all to make it work. Simply hook it up to ported vacuum.

The second pic shows the relation of this sensor to two vacuum motors that run
the stock manifolds tumble butterflies and runner control butterflies.

[Focus_wrc07]

John, thanks for the new updates. You're getting closer slowly, but surely.

Not a problem for the positive comments, and keep it up.

[beast02er]

WOW, I started reading this thread and was APPALLED about the people writing you telling you that you were pretty much a dumbass for using motorcycle throttle bodies on a car! Especially the guy telling you to do your research and ASK HERE FIRST, HA! Cracks me up. Well i'm glad it has slowly come forward that what you are doing is not wrong, and not out of the ordinary. Its funny how some auto groups are so different, go to VWvortex and you can probably find 10+ guys in the process of doing something like this at any time.

I myself started a project like this (except making them DCOE (weber carburetor, sidedraft spaced to fit on a DCOE manifold) for my 1973 BMW 2002 ( I used GSXR600 TB's), using megasquirt and all that.

I am now going to do a Duratec 2.0L with GSXR750 TB's mounted DCOE style, then make a variable length intake set-up, write a program to work with the Megasquirt, so then I have my intake lenght variable by the RPM of the engine, hopefully flattening out my torque band. The engine will either go in a Mk.1 Ford Cortina, or possible a home-built car I am designing.


Anyway, good luck with your project, if you need more help on this sort of stuff go over to vwvortex.com and search around the forums, along with megasquirtefi forums.


-Bryan

[Egz]

beast02er, thanks for joining. I've been meaning to read up on the details of Megasquirt. How easy is it to tune with a MAP based system? I'm somewhere between a basic and intermediate level experience in soldering electronics, so how hard would assembly be for me?

[Bochet]

Egz, the Miata guys have PnP adapters made for the MS for OBDI but people are still doing the wiring for OBDII applications. You can read up on miata.net or miataturbo.net to see how these guys are wiring everytihng together. Lots of help here.

[Egz]

Yea, looks like I have a lot of reading to do. Especially when it comes to making it work with our COP ignition. But that is a topic for another thread.

[JohnStranahan]

Thanks for the interest and the link guys. I'll check it out. Don't be to harsh on early responders as some of them have become interested.
After about a month of nationwide search, I have been unable to find someone willing to part with their stock plastic manifold. I have had eyes on one and PMs on a second. This will probably improve in the future. For this reason I have decided to start clean and build a simple manifold from ABS plastic. This is probably a little unusual. The standard ABS glue at a hardware store does a very good job of gluing pipe into a tight fitting hole. It should be as good as the friction welded material that we have stock. I have selected 1.5 inch ID by 1/4 inch wall thickness pipe. This will allow me some extra material to match the port in the head on one side of the pipe and match the throttle body round tube on the the other. I will loose my inner tumble butterflies but will incorporate their function into my secondary throttle plates. These are my thoughts on the secondary throttles at the moment, closed at idle (there is a gap all round). 1/4 open at 1200 RPM using the tumble butterfly control. Full Open at 3000 RPM using the runner length butterfly control.
I have selected a thick flange material because plastic flows a little away from pressure. This will keep my homade and sealed gasket snug.
MacMaster-Carr
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[OmniFocus]

I just spotted this for the first time.

Thanks for the excellent photodocumentation, I look forward to seeing more progress.

[burnv8]