Suzuki GSXR 750 quad Throttle Body Install on 2.3 L Duratec

[JohnStranahan]

We made great progress today. We set the manifold flange on the adjustable angle table (most big drill presses have this built in). A sketch showed I needed a 24 degree angle on the outer holes and 13.5 degree angle on the two inner runners. I used a dial protractor and buble level (the mill table is level) to set the angle on the work piece. We cut the first hole with only minor problems. A huge volume of chips was produced which we cleared by hand with the machine stopped or running. Neve do this by hand on steel chips. We got a nice clean hole with a good surface finish on the wall ready to be solvent welded to my 2 inch ABS tube runners. I did shoot a video. When I get it edited an shortened up I will post a link to it in my Journal. Can you do this on a big drill press. I think so. The Grizzly insdustrial bit was very sharp. Chip flow was good upward. I would clear chips every .050 inches without coolant.
john

[hemet2.3]

I cant freakin wait to see the finished product. Keep on going.

[Egz]

Is that delrin you are making it out of? Why that material?

[JohnStranahan]

The material is ABS plastic. It is the same material, I believe, as the original intake just a different color. The pipes will be black.

Here is a link to the video of cutting the first hole. The first link is in my journal and is a more compact file for viewing only part screen. There is some text along with it. The second is 10 MB for the 3 minutes or so and can be viewed full screen.

http://journals.aol.com/johnstranaha...ing/#Entry1640



http://hometown.aol.com/johnstranaha...foldFlange.wmv

[vin0410]

[quote=JohnStranahan]The material is ABS plastic. It is the same material, I believe, as the original intake just a different color. The pipes will be black.

Here is a link to the video of cutting the first hole. The first link is in my journal and is a more compact file for viewing only part screen. There is some text along with it. The second is 10 MB for the 3 minutes or so and can be viewed full screen.[quote=JohnStranahan]

John, how did you find out the 24 degrees? Is that the angle that makes the manifold continues the surface into the inlet ports of the head? FYI the stock manifold is plastic but it bearly contacts the head, as the screws are fixed on nuts. Plastic may not be able to deal with the heat of the head.

[JohnStranahan]

vin0410- Here is the sketch that I made to determine the angles. What I wanted is minimum angles so that the hose sections would clamp well to the throttle bodies and to the inlet runners. I offset the the runner pipes to the right in the diagram 1/4 inch to reduce the angles. The distance from head to TB is 2 inches. I measured in cm the center of the throttle body assembly to the center of each individual throttle bodies. These numbers are at the top of the sketch. I put an arrow where I wanted the short pipes to end up. Then I drew in 2 inch pipes with 1/4 inch walls that ended up centered on the arrow at 2 inches. I could measure the angles directly from the sketch as raggedy as it is. The offset will be removed by porting the plastic so that there are no steps near the head. At the Throttle bodies the pipes will be ported to make them a little more round and open them up to near 2 inches. The 1.5 inch ID of the pipe can be opened up slightly to match the 42 mm butterfly diameter. More detail on request. The sketch was full size and showed only two of the four throttle body runners.

The original manifold uses standard bolts on my car with metal inserts in the plastic. Pics are earlier in the thread and in the Journal. I will use similar inserts. The o-ring gasket will be replaced by a paper gasket with RTV on both sides. This will insulate the manifold from the head. Fuel injection also cools this area.
john

[Focus_wrc07]

That's awesome. Thanks for the updates.

[phongshader]

Great progress! This is where I am with my manifold project.
http://usera.imagecave.com/system/sh...&a=Locost_wk81
http://usera.imagecave.com/system/sh...=Loc ost_wk82
http://usera.imagecave.com/system/sh...=Loc ost_wk82
I don't have the same manifold length constraints as you but the first prototype is still too long. I made the initial length to 4th harmonic resonant pulse @7500 rpm. I'll probably have to shorten the manifold by about 2" to have it fit inside the hood. It won't be as efficient but you have to make comprimises :-(

[Egz]

Nice. Who did the machining?

[phongshader]

I did all the cad work in SolidWorks...and I'm lucky ;-)...where i work we have a 3D printer so what you're looking at isn't realy functional but a prototype although I could probably use it for a manifold but the material is fairly brittle. So it's really just a mock up to see how it all fit on the engine, throttle bodies and under the hood. Once that is all figured out I'll print up molds to produce foam plugs for lost foam casting an aluminum manifold.

[Focus_wrc07]

That's awesome. Great job guys. We'll be waiting for further updates to come.

[PCP_TwilightZX3]

man with the waythis is all shapingup i might have start saving up some money for an itb setup

[Focus_wrc07]

Twilight, I know what you're saying. That, and to buy the stuff to fabricate things yourself comes in handy at times too.

I just wish that I had half of the resources at my disposal as this.

[sleeperlove]

This is Wicked! I was skeptical at first but now I am totally on board

[fordblue03]

Good stuff man!

[Egz]

Bump. Any progress?

[JohnStranahan]

I expect little problems with the plastic manifold. I will be assembling the tubes to the manifold in the next few weeks. I think I found recently a good bit to port it.

I did encounter an unexpected lack of space during the trial fit of my Suzuki parts with the Focus Manifold off the car. We cut a few pieces off the Suzuki intake air filter housing to make it fit. I would be ideal to have just a little more clearance at the radiator for the air filter cover. This would allow sufficient space in front of the short rubber trumpets for good air flow (good high end) and increase the volume of the air box for a good low end.

After much thought I have decided to shorten the throttle bodies which will also help to simplify the project. Picture 1 shows a light green line where I plan to cut all the way around each of the throttle body tubes. The space between the green and black line will allow a hose clamp type of rubber sleeve connector. I will have to add another brace to the throttle bodies to connect all the bodies on the other side. 1 brace is saved. The pen in photo two shows where a 1/4 inch flat T6 Aluminum plate will be bolted. Two bolts per throttle body.
This will eliminate about 1.75 inch of length. That should be just enough to use at least the outer cover of the Suzuki air cleaner with few mods.

I plan to remove completely the secondary throttle plates. This engine is about double the capacity of the motorcycle and may not need them from a performance standpoint (bog at WOT). From an emmisions standpoint the close proximity of the primary throttles to the head may produce the turbulence required (made by the butterflies in the manifold closest to the head). Anyway I plan not to solve problems that may not exist at this point.
I will lose one set of vacuum ports. These can be added to the plastic manifold along with a small plenum. I have purchased a PCV eliminator kit which is basically a hose and filter so that air that enters through the PCV valve into the crankcase can be drawn filtered by my manifold.
John

[orionlion82]

low and mid is what the duratec is all about.

i know its going to be an evil monster but -
why turn it honda?


or in shortening the throttle bodies are you increasing intake for TQ?

a little unclear.

[JohnStranahan]

I cut the tubes. Was not too hard. I used a hacksaw on the end tubes and cut the center tubes about 1/2 the way. Unused bores in the vise between wood blocks. I finished up with a sawsall with 4 inch bimetalic metal blade. I used a flap wheel to even up the bore edges. I will now have to remove material, about 1/2 inch to make the outer parts of the bore cylindrical for about 1/2 inch. I was lucky in that there was a bore size change to large bore at the cut leaving a nice lip to hold the rubber tube. Now were talking. Nice and simple. About as short as possible. Note that there will be another brace. Without the secondaries continuous shaft, body to body alignment wont be as critical. EGR will enter the copper. Some idle air and PCV air will enter the black plastic fitting. A third port will be needed for the combined temp and Absolute Manifold pressure sensor.

Note that throttle linkage concerns (TPS) at the Passenger end of the engine still require throttle bodies with tighter spacing than the ports in the head.
John

[JohnStranahan]

OrionLion182
OK-This is what I notice. Cornering is my game and some top speed runs. At about 2200 to 2500 the motor pulls well, just a little weak, bone stock in the corners. Then you add a cold air intake (Cosworth or Focus Sport I have had both), larger MAF housing then an egine program to tinker with it. Now you have a bit of a stumble on occasion on very hard cornering at the RPM's mentioned. Your full power runs are improved. You tune most of this stumble out with the engine program but you have to go about 6% rich overall. That is my only handle at the moment to correct the stumble. It is still there just better. I suspect that air velocity is lost midrange. You have very good air velocity at the throttle body, but then its dumped into a huge tortuous path manifold. By the time it reaches the last runner any hint of velocity is lost.

Aftermarket engine programs seem to be suited to full power runs on the dyno but fail in the corners. SCT.

What a multiple throttle body does is keeps that high speed jet of air directed right at the valve train on part throttle. A larger overal area for four of these little throttle bodies may improve top end. I can go 130 mph at present. Cornering is at 1.0 g's. Trying to extract the max with minimum expense. Throttle response is super with individual throttle bodies (ITB's). I want to eliminate the stumble and improve part throttle performance.

Not trying to turn my Mazda engine Into a Honda. Just adding small Suzuki throttle bodies to my Ford.

I will note that a record holding ultimate Solo (autocross) car driver has a Duratec with ITB's in his newest ride. There was a writeup in a recent issue of "Sports Car".
john

[orionlion82]

fascinating!

I am a low end guy -but (as a pattern here is developing i will assume *probably wrong* as usual) you are a midrange guy.

love the line about mazda/honda/zuzuki/ford.
good laugh. all told-

very mild cams - dont remember if its crane or crower... BUT
the minimum aftermarket ones do mid and top while sacrificing low end. - the intro newbie gentle ones-

stage 2 and the crazy hyper ones are all rev like hondas.

looked into some puppy dog cams? not full on but...
for a few hundred and some wrench time its worth looking over.

i would have -but i dont want to sacrifice my low end for mid.


if it helps- i am a hardcore daily driver (bone stock and its best for my needs)
i would love to mod but in my world it would be idiotic.
very harsh conditions out here. rally splashes when it rains - dust storms - dirt roads. mud. speedlimits too high for roads in such bad shape.. i tell ya.

so thats the perspective.

a student but wise enough not to live it.

[jinstall]

I just found this and will be looking several times a day now.

This is the stuff I live for, legends started out this way.

[JohnStranahan]

jinstall-Thanks. Note there are fluries of activity followed by months of thinking.

No cams needed at this point. The same problem I have would exist with a cam.

I cut the second stiffening rail from the left over parts of the secondary throttle plates. It had a flange and drilled hole that had the right spacing. I drilled and tapped the throttle bodies 10 x 32 TPI and attached the rail with stainless socket head button head screws. I shaped the part with a flap wheel in the 4.5 inch grinder.

You can see that little bulge that is going to eventually help hold the hose at the top of the bores. This side of the part will be downward in the engine bay. Also note the TPS throttle position sensor which will need to clear a pump on the passenger end of the engine.
John

[JohnStranahan]

I removed unneeded bosses and ribs from the engine side of the short throttle bodies with a cutoff wheel in the 4.5 inch grinder. I smoothed with a Dremmel sanding drum. I was satisfied. I have shown one body with the size rubber hose that will connect the throttle bodies to the manifold runners. I tried using the lathe to clean the OD of the individual bodies, but I could not really chuck the piece hard enough to do the much interrupted cut. Better to grind it. The picture shows the short throttle bodies nestled neatly in the Suzuki airbox. I was lucky that second rail fit really nice right up against the plastic. You can see on top the cut lines I made to fit the box in the space available between the pumps. Air may have to enter the box similar to the Cosworth Aluminum manifold with single throttle body.
I am more confident I can get it to fit and work now.
John