THE Water Injection thread

[Bmorezx3]

Ok, for the sake of saving people time going through the multiple threads concerning water injection, I have amassed all information I feel is pertinent to the topic in this thread.

Feel free to add any information I have left out.

Applications

<u>Why water injection?</u>

Most JRSC guys use it to help prevent deto. Tom got about 10hp out of mine with the meth/water injection, but I really dont have the system for power, its more for protection since I am running 14psi with no intercooler. The system itself injects a mixture of water and methanol into your induction (or intake manifold), you can look at the methanol as a really high octane fuel that helps prevent deto.

If you're just talking about water injection with no methanol, then its purpose is simply to cool the intake charge. The methanol also helps to cool even more. The cooling aspect is probably the biggest help in reducing detonation and allowing more timing, as water vapor by itself (humidity) makes engines more likely to detonate and forces a tuner to reduce timing.

One thing that most people overlook is the expansion of water when turned from a liquid to a gas. When water goes from a liquid to a gas(like during combustion) water expands up to 1600 times its original size.

For example say you're running H2O injection and you get 1 ounce of water in the cylinder, remember this is just an easy number to use, after ignition you could produce up to 1600 ounces of steam inside the cylinder. Which in turn causes a big pressure rise, creating more power

<u>Safety of water injection by “scott77”</u>

I think it's a great idea and Tom is right that it could cause big problems if you DEPEND on it being there by adding timing for it, because it is a moving part and moving parts will eventually fail. But so is your fuel pump, oil pump, stock water pump, etc

The best way to prevent problems in any system is by eliminating single points of failure, but sometimes that isn't cost-effective. I don't know how possible a dual water pump WI system would be. Another option is to get a pressure gauge hooked up to the line so you would know if the pump failed, and act accordingly.

Another safety option that would help a lot here in the event of a failure in your WI system is the J&amp;S Ultrasafeguard...depending on how much you advanced your timing, it might be able to retard enough if the pump failed.

Actually now that I think about it, I wonder if you could use its nitrous features in an OPPOSITE way...have a stock non WI-configured timing, and when you hit your window for WI, the J&amp;S would ADVANCE timing (when you hook it up to a nitrous switch, it will retard 2 or 4 degrees)


<u>Controllers</u>

My only advice would be to get a version that injects, or varies volume of water delivery, based on airflow, not boost pressure.... at least not boost pressure only. Boost and RPM would be OK.

The Snow kit can be had with a mafs based signal for the variable controller. I have the boost referenced one and now that you point it out realize that I can get significant boost at low rpm's by tipping the throttle and then inject too much water. An airflow based controller would also make the resevoir last longer!
I blew the vacuum connector to the boost gauge/Snow controller off today at full boost (1.1 bar) in 3rd gear and heard some detonation right so I drove it easy until I coud get home and reconnect it. I guess my car is now dependent on the H2O injection!

Aquamist sells a 3d maping system that are designed to pulse the water injection system in time with the injectors so water and fuel will be injected at the exact same time.

Boost refrence works. But you can end up puddling water at the intake valves at the wrong time. You want it to be as close as possible to the injector timing.

Guess it would be safe to say it's the same as using old wwII 500 pound bomb (say 100 needed to hit one target) is the boost refrence, compared to a 1,000 pound laser guided smartbomb is injector pulse based water injection.

Actually, using water injection at 3-4psi is helpful but the problem is you need very little water at that low boost, but more at higher boost. So an "on-off" switch like the snow stage 2 (?) set based on boost means you probably want to start around 5-6psi so you do not flood your intake manifold too early. A lot of people actually lose power with water injection because they don't have the patience to get the flow just right, and tune the engine ECU to match the.

More complicated water injection systems (alkycontrol, aquamist 2, and maybe snow stage 3?) offer a rampup based control. There, you can set the water injection to come on at a much lower boost but start out at a very low flow, then at higher boost have higher flow - ramp up is usually linear, but with the very expensive aquamist you can map it based on temperature, boost, engine speed, etc.

Nozzle Information

<u>Mounting for turbo (by Welding Rod)</u>

Aquamist says the optimum location for the jet is after, but as close to, the intercooler as possible... therefore allowing plenty of time for thorough mixing / distribution of the water into the air stream.

You can see where mine is located in the PTE FAQ... a couple post down is a post of mine with a link to pics.

Also I think the ACT sensor should be placed as close to the TB as possible... down stream of the water so it can advance timing when the water is on, and not when it is off.... such as in the case of a malfunction or if you ever ran out of water.

I wouldn't want to get the water nozzle too close to the ACT sensor though... perhaps getting it wet and causing problems. Although with my old Aerocharger I had the ACT sensor in the TB side of the very short plenum and the nozzle maybe only 6" prior to it, and it seemed to work fine, and my scanner didn't show ACT readings that ever seemed suspect.

<u>Nozzle for the Jackson Racing intake manifold by “Bmorezx3”</u>

The Jackson manifold is pre-tapped for an 8M X .075 nozzle. That is the same threading as the Aquamist nozzles.

If you are using an Aquamist nozzle with the Snow kit you will need a nozzle with a 6mm hosetail.

<u>Problems mounting nozzle before TB by “nordy2000”</u>

<u>Buying nozzles by “ulackfocus”</u>

After reading the thread "Tapping the manifold for meth/water injection" I decided to do some reasearch. Nate (Bmorezx3) mentioned using jets that have a 6 mm (1/4") hosetail from Aquamist so they accept the Snow system hoses - this would bypass drilling/tapping and allow you to just screw to the existing hole. I called Aquamist directly and after a brief stop on their website I have all the info anyone would need. All the jets (or nozzles if you prefer) have the same thread pattern - 8mm X .75 thread pitch. Moss Motors only has 4mm hosetail jets, so call 3SX Performance in N.C. at (704)786-6400. Here are all the part numbers for different jet sizes with 6mm hosetails:
806334 = .4mm
806336 = .5mm
806339 = .6mm
806345 = .7mm
806352 = .8mm
806353 = .9mm
806356 = 1.0mm
I ordered the .7mm - they are only $20 each - and in stock.

<u>Sizing nozzles by “bri”</u>

Looking at one of the charts that Aquamist has there pumps run at 4bar(60psi), the Show stage one is 100psi and the stage 2 is 200psi. So with the higher pressure of the snow pump It looks like we need to down size the jet.

From Aquamist @ 4bar
0.4 180 ml/m
0.5 225 ml/m
0.6 250 ml/m
0.7 280 ml/m
0.8 295 ml/m
0.9 310 ml/m
1.0 320 ml/m

From Snow’s instructions
All Nozzles are rated at 60psi Pump Pressure
175 ml/m @ 100psi=200 ml/m @ 200psi=240 ml/m
225 ml/m @ 100psi=260 ml/m @ 200psi=310 ml/m
375 ml/m @ 100psi=430 ml/m @ 200psi=520 ml/m
625ml/m @ 100psi=720 ml/m @ 200psi=865 ml/m

1. To calculate your injection needs you will need to approximate your fuel delivery amount and then determine how much water/methanol you want to mix with the fuel.

-For your fuel delivery:

Flywheel horsepower * 7.22 = Fuel delivery in mL/min

ex: 200bhp * 7.22 = 1444 mL/min

-Then you decide how much water/meth you want to mix. For low boost/NA applications Snow Performance recommends injecting 15%. for high boost you will want 25%.

Fuel delivery * X% = Injector size needed

ex: 1444 mL/min * .25 = 361 mL/min

that's how big your injector will need to be to inject 25% water/methanol into your fuel.

-Keep in mind that both Snow and Aquamist list their nozzle flow rates with a 60psi pump. Increasing the pump pressure (Snow's pump is 140psi and there is also a 220psi pump) will increase flow.

60 psi &gt; 100 psi multiply the injection flow by 15%
ex: 175mL/min @ 60psi = 201.25mL/min @ 100psi

100psi &gt; 200psi multiply the injection flow by 20%
ex: 200mL/min @ 100psi = 240mL/min @ 200psi

Keep in mind mL = cc. Snow lists their nozzles in mL/min, Aquamist lists theirs in cc/min.

Threads/Websites about water injection

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

Http://www.snowperformance.net
http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416398201

http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416398916


http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416435600

http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416483972

http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416530809

http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416613968


http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416658818

http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416718400

http://www.focaljet.com/ubbthreads/showf...#Post2416724705

[Focus Addict]

BEST THREAD EVER!!!!!

[MattHarrell]

Never mind. Brain fart.

[CorvairMatt65]

Very helpful. Prolly took me a week before to gather all that information and now you can get it all in 5 min! Good work!

[nordy200]

Nate,
Great job in compling all that information! I appreciate all the work you did to put it together.
One item I didn't see in your post was the need for a solenoid (for the Snow Performance kit) or a check valve (like the one that came with the Aquamist kit I installed on my ZX3) that's absolutely required if injecting after the TB. Could prevent the boneheaded move I made when I first drilled and tapped for the Snow nozzle after my TB.

[PastyPyro]

Water injection explained and discussed in detail:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...284&amp;page=1

[Bmorezx3]

Nate,
Great job in compling all that information! I appreciate all the work you did to put it together.
One item I didn't see in your post was the need for a solenoid (for the Snow Performance kit) or a check valve (like the one that came with the Aquamist kit I installed on my ZX3) that's absolutely required if injecting after the TB. Could prevent the boneheaded move I made when I first drilled and tapped for the Snow nozzle after my TB.

Ah yes, good point!

You will need a solenoid ($39.95 from Snow Performance) between the nozzle and the output of the pump if you are going to inject into the intake manifold directly. Otherwise the engine will suck water through the pump whenever it sees vaccuum. I mounted mine here:



From what I can tell there is about 1 second of residual flow after the pump shuts off. The car sucks the remaining water after the solenoid in and runs rich for about 1-2 seconds. Nothing to worry about as the car is pulling it in during idle and burns it right up. However, the datalogger @ McNews was showing a little wierdness from the extra fuel (50% methanol remember) being burned right after the dyno run. Something to be aware of.

Ray also mentioned that he thought the water/meth was cooling the O2 sensor as it ran through the motor causing it to show some quirkyness at idle on the logger. It only lasts a second or so.

Nate

[Drabert]

1st vote for making this thread a sticky

[Ray]

it's already in the references thread. before any replies, even.

[Welding Rod]

Very Nicely Done!

[focusownerskid]

One question I wanted to ask.

Will the 'boost sensing' controller inject any other time besides WOT?

If I am cruising and go 1/2 throttle and catch 4-5lbs(where I want to start injecting) will it inject at part throttle? If so, will that cause problems? Will it run better/worse?

- Drew

[Bmorezx3]

One question I wanted to ask.

Will the 'boost sensing' controller inject any other time besides WOT?

If I am cruising and go 1/2 throttle and catch 4-5lbs(where I want to start injecting) will it inject at part throttle? If so, will that cause problems? Will it run better/worse?

- Drew

It's not smart enough to know the difference between 5psi @ WOT and 5psi at partial. However, I just set the boost to come on only at a boost which I would see under WOT. For me, I can press the pedal down to partial at any time and get around 3-4psi. However I will only see 5+psi at WOT so I set the injection to occur @ 6psi.

There is really no reason to inject lower anyway, the eaton runs relatively cool at low boost. High boost/blower rpm is where the cooling is necessary.

Also I see no reason why the water injection would have negative effects on the car at partial throttle.

Nate

[focusownerskid]

Thanks Nate.

The only reason I would like to inject at very low boost, is so that I can run higher timing/leaner fuel across the board and not just when I get to a certain boost/rpm

- Drew

[bri]

I have one thing to add the MAF kit has to connect the controller unit to the red and green lead to the MAF. The red/green wire is the main power to the MAF the white/light blue one is the correct wire.

After talking to someone else they though the white/purple was the right one, so I tried that and I’m not sure if it is or not. Any one have a clue as to what wire to pick the MAF signal up form.

[alx]

Is anybody running a water/meth injection set up with a Powerworks blower? How does that work out? I'm wondering if you have to place the injector directly in the manifold below the intercooler or above it?

[kennan J]

bringing it back from the dead THis thread helped alot on my WMI install!!!

[polarisman14]

This is an excellent thread. Thank you for writing it. But, IMHO, you should NEVER run 14psi un-intercooled. I was dumb for doing 10.5psi that way. Plus, that way, it's just a safety net in addition to the intercooler instead of being the only form of intercooling, period. Otherwise, excellent writeup and thank you for taking the time to do it.

[GOTBOOSTzx2]

Im curious, what are you guys puitting in your Water/meth tanks? Ive herd of using windshieldwasher fluid. But I may end up using 100% meth.

[20focus03]

holy back from the dead thread batman

[boostedzx3]

wonder why this wasn't ever stickied, I never knew it existed and hell I was a member then too

[polarisman14]

Snow performance recommends a half and half mix, in order for them to be able to ship their mixture they have to do 49% methanol, 51% water. I use a 50/50 mix of Irving methanol and Poland Springs water, and then 8oz of pure nitromethane per 2qt reservoir (32oz).

[20focus03]

on my syclone i run 50/50 mix and then also throw some water wetter in the intercooler..iirc redline makes the water wetter...never looked back since keeps the truck cool gives you power and lower the intake charge..

[polarisman14]

Yeah that works pretty good just keep in mind it doesnt do nearly as good of a job as antifreeze in colder climates--with straight water and a bottle of water wetter in my a2w setup it started to freeze at 20-25 degrees and I had to siphon a bunch out and put coolant in. Oh well.

[DigitalGT]

Don't use 100% meth. It's dangerous, burns with a nearly invisble flame, and is not needed.

50/50 water meth provides more octane boost than you will need along with plenty of charge temp cooling. It is safe enough to throw a lit match into without fear of ignition.

I don't recommend using windshield washer fluid because you never know what concentration of meth you're getting. If you tune the car to take advantage of the WMI you want to be certain you're getting the same concentration everytime it sprays.