SVT CGI engine block swap

[WRCwannabe]

350whp is sfe. john did like 380whp for 8months before he got badgas and blew it.


27psi is maxon stock block i believe.

DO NOT BUY A CGI BLOCK.
waste of money for real.
and its heavier.
meaaaansslower

[hEaT]

Just remember that psi numbers are irrelevant when comparing different turbos and if any port work has been done.

[SaucyMuffin]

When i was talking to John last sunday he didn't tell me anything about getting bad gas, he told me he was, "Being stupid and racing" but he said his block was fine he just blew pistons in cylinders 3 and 4 just by blowing the rings off. He also told me that they knew the engine was going to blow soon

[bmylez]

Naw, he strongly believes he got a tank of bad gas. The stupid part was that he saw the J&S light up like a Christmas tree and said to himself "just a few more seconds..." then BAM, something let go. If he had let off the instant he saw the J&S, the engine would have been saved.

[SaucyMuffin]

he didn't seem angry about it lol it was good to actually meet the turbo SVT legend himself. I should have cornered him and asked him a ton of questions but I didn't lol.

[bmylez]

He's "the" turbo SVT legend? I'm not trying to belittle him since I think he's a cool guy and we hung out just this August...but he doesn't have the highest hp SVT or anything like that. He has a lot of cool custom work, but I'm just wondering why he's a legend.

[DigitalGT]

Because he was a frequent poster on this board and word spread all over that he had a high powered stock block SVT. He also made a point of blowing his own horn about it.....and rightfully so probably. I would have been pretty happy knowing my car made that much power on a stock block......but then again I wasn't foolish/carefree enough to try it either. I'll give it to him though. John had balls to keep pushing it and even though he grenaded the thing, he set a benchmark that has given a lot of SVT tuners some food for thought on how far to go before upgrading reciprocals. There are a lot of engines out there that don't have that sort of data lying around because no one has had the nerve to try it.

[bmylez]

Aren't most of those engines that haven't been pushed to the limit non "tuner" engines? Surely the limits of the Cobra block, 2JZ, 4G63, World Engine, etc etc have been tested. Which ones are you talking about?

[WRCwannabe]

a stock non-turbo/sc block, with a bolt on kit and tune. and see how high it can go, without changing any internals.

[ZX3TUNING]

ok
under racing conditions a CGI block with more than 20psi is a good idea. can you get away with a Standard Zetec or SVT block up to 450fwhp? Yes.

do you need oil squirters? no. forged rods and more importantly pistons are more than capable at handling whatever you throw at them

is there a down side to oil squirters? yes, if they are not aimed properly they will cause hot/cold spots on the pistons, rods and cylinder walls which can lead to other problems.

if you are building a race motor, spending extra money on something that is going to be reliable OR spend the money and build a spare motor.


Titainium rods have a service life and need to be replaced, not steel rods. EG: Ti rods in the Porsche RSR engine must be replaced every 100hrs iirc but we're talking 9000rpm twist there. i cannot recall ever hearing of Aluminum rods.

try some 8.5:1 forged Diamond pistons and some eagle rods with a bolt upgrade, billet mains and ARP main studs. should be good enough for about 25psi max or about 550fwhp with a super solid tune on 100oct! if you are running squirters, get the machine shop to aim them at the rod so when the piston is at BDC, it his the rod at the wrist pin and NOT the bottom of the piston or the cylinder wall or cap them off completely!

[CharlesWA]

Are the SVT's factory installed squirters indexed somehow? They were all uninstalled when I got my used SVT block.

I should probably just bring you all my parts when the time comes to build the motor. (Ok, only half kidding.)

[Ja-Red]

Billet main caps are the biggest waste of money and the oldest gimmick in the book. This is per my machine shop who builds engines for 4k hp funny cars and fountain power boats.

Did the WRC zetecs have billet mains? No. Were they pushing over 600ftlbs yes! Were they running a CGI block? Yes.

Conclusion, you probably need a CGI block for over 500ftlbs (CGI block is 20% stronger) and billet mains are a crock!

[blackbird]

Originally Posted by SaucyMuffin

Just answer me straight up; Stock SVT engine is good for 300+ whp running what max psi reliably under race conditions at 89k miles?

You should be able to easily make that power on a stock engine as shown by many people over the years. Would I do it in your scenario? Probably not. If you're truly going to be pushing the car to the limits hard and under "race" conditions, want to run 300 whp, and probably want more than that, the stock cast hypereutectic alloy pistons are going to be the weak link and any small hiccup might do them in.

If this race car is going to be fed only a strict diet of high octane leaded race gas and has dead-on tuning with appropriate safeguards and monitoring tools in place it will probably last for some time, but the question is how competitive are you trying to be? Can you tolerate an engine failure mid-race or mid-season? How soon can you have a replacement engine built and ready and so on.

Originally Posted by ZX3TUNING

Titainium rods have a service life and need to be replaced, not steel rods. EG: Ti rods in the Porsche RSR engine must be replaced every 100hrs iirc but we're talking 9000rpm twist there. i cannot recall ever hearing of Aluminum rods.

Everything technically has a service life. What you're describing is more common for aluminum racing rods. Yes, you can buy custom lightweight aluminum racing rods, but those are the type of rods that fatigue and must be replaced on a scheduled basis depending on use. And aluminum rods have to be made much larger than a conventional rod to be able to provide the same strength levels but they're usually still lighter which is their main selling point. Unless you're building a race-only engine that gets pushed hard enough to require frequent teardowns and rebuilds and can afford the added cost it usually isn't worth it.

Titanium rods on the other hand offer much better strength-to-weight which is their key advantage. You can build a smaller and lighter rod than forged steel and it can be just as strong. This is better for lowering reciprocating mass and can allow higher revs. Unlike aluminum and to a lesser extent the steel rods, titanium rods can be pushed closer to their designed power limits and they will hold up to those stresses well over time while the other rods (especially aluminum) will begin to fatigue. They're probably the best option out there but few people need the capabilities they provide let alone be able to afford them.

[JamesZX3]

actually the WRC Zetecs did have billet mains and THEY DID NOT make 600lb/ft.
i have no idea where you got that from. they, like all WRC cars were limited to 300bhp and ~550NM or about 400lb/ft.... and those are crank numbers.

billet mains are not vaporware, they are a waste for some cars which have mains that can handle serious power but for most small displacement engines they do make a difference. those 4k hp funny car engines are also not street/oem based engines and they are usually built with billet mains when they are cast/foged. In a focus if you are planing on pushing 400+ they are a good idea, as is a CGI block. do you need them, no but if you are going for that much power it seems like a waste not to get them if you are building from the ground up anyways. the CGI block is for those that seriously race with sustained high boost levels or those pushing 450+ and want it to last.

some guys have been able to get away without them with 450+ and some guys have broken stock mains with 300+. just like some guys ca make 300+ on stock rods where as most guys seem to fail around 250...

[Ja-Red]

Originally Posted by JamesZX3

actually the WRC Zetecs did have billet mains and THEY DID NOT make 600lb/ft.
i have no idea where you got that from. they, like all WRC cars were limited to 300bhp and ~550NM or about 400lb/ft.... and those are crank numbers.

billet mains are not vaporware, they are a waste for some cars which have mains that can handle serious power but for most small displacement engines they do make a difference. those 4k hp funny car engines are also not street/oem based engines and they are usually built with billet mains when they are cast/foged. In a focus if you are planing on pushing 400+ they are a good idea, as is a CGI block. do you need them, no but if you are going for that much power it seems like a waste not to get them if you are building from the ground up anyways. the CGI block is for those that seriously race with sustained high boost levels or those pushing 450+ and want it to last.

some guys have been able to get away without them with 450+ and some guys have broken stock mains with 300+. just like some guys ca make 300+ on stock rods where as most guys seem to fail around 250...

I have it on good account from a VERY reputable source That back when the zetec was in service for WRC there was no limit on TQ only hp. They were running 50psi of boost and making over 600ftlbs

Also I have NEVER ever, nor has anyone else I have ever spoken to, seen a broken main cap. Not even pictures.

The only person who has ever claimed broken caps is Tom who happens (conveniently) to make billet caps. This is also the guy who claims to have broken multiple cranks but has no shred of evidence. He is also the guy who said he made 700whp ( with zero evidence other than a bogus dyno chart by time where he spools a turbo from 100hp to 700hp in less than 1 second) on stock cams but then turned around and tells others stock cams are good for only 380-420whp. but yeah that sounds like a credible enough source to me! Let me run out and drop 400 of my hard earned bucks on them!

The point is, unless you are tying the caps together with some sort of girdle all you are doing is making yourself feel better.

oh, And I made 340whp and 338ftlbs on a completely stock motor on 93octane

[ZX3TUNING]

Originally Posted by Ja-Red

I have it on good account from a VERY reputable source That back when the zetec was in service for WRC there was no limit on TQ only hp. They were running 50psi of boost and making over 600ftlbs

please explain how you can limit hp but have unlimited torque from a 2L 16v engine on 50psi of boost?!




I question a lot of what Tom says but there are lots of people who don't post online who build some pretty wild cars....
i think most of the issues Tom has with cranks and mains may stem from the tuning or lack there of but then, why would you post pics of such things?

[Ja-Red]

Hp is only an equation of Tq and rpm. Any thing can be built with enough money.

The one thing i can't figure out is with the amount of money ford spends on WRC why is/was the RS FWD and not AWD? And WHY DON'T WE GET THAT DAMN CAR!

[bmylez]

Isn't it possible to limit hp by putting a restrictor plate in the throttle body? Could have sworn I heard that you can have ridiculous torque while keeping hp low in rally cars...

[Ja-Red]

Originally Posted by bmylez

Isn't it possible to limit hp by putting a restrictor plate in the throttle body? Could have sworn I heard that you can have ridiculous torque while keeping hp low in rally cars...

I think they had a tube 1.5"x6" for a restrictor in the intake.

[turbozeteczx3]

Originally Posted by Ja-Red

I have it on good account from a VERY reputable source That back when the zetec was in service for WRC there was no limit on TQ only hp. They were running 50psi of boost and making over 600ftlbs

Also I have NEVER ever, nor has anyone else I have ever spoken to, seen a broken main cap. Not even pictures.

The only person who has ever claimed broken caps is Tom who happens (conveniently) to make billet caps. This is also the guy who claims to have broken multiple cranks but has no shred of evidence. He is also the guy who said he made 700whp ( with zero evidence other than a bogus dyno chart by time where he spools a turbo from 100hp to 700hp in less than 1 second) on stock cams but then turned around and tells others stock cams are good for only 380-420whp. but yeah that sounds like a credible enough source to me! Let me run out and drop 400 of my hard earned bucks on them!

The point is, unless you are tying the caps together with some sort of girdle all you are doing is making yourself feel better.

oh, And I made 340whp and 338ftlbs on a completely stock motor on 93octane

Ive seen two broken cranks at his shop and also a twisted and broken crower rod.
Just a FYI

and yes the wrc car ran a restrictor plate thats why it makes gobs of tq

[DigitalGT]

There was no HP or torque limit in WRC. The limitation was the mandated turbo inlet restrictor which effectively limited peak HP to around 300 though that is not a hard number....some engines make more. The HP peak comes in around 5500 RPM and the engine tends to fall on it's face after that. The restrictor is trumpet shaped in profile and last I checked was 34mm in diameter at it's smallest diameter.

Don't think of it as a 2.0L turbo 4. Think of it as a really big nasty powerful engine breathing though a drinking straw....lots of grunt at first but that quickly levels off as you can only flow so much air through the straw.

[bmylez]

Right, which supports Jared's comment that they made ~300hp but waaay more torque, correct?

[DigitalGT]

Yes the car made roughly 300-330 HP but torque production was anywhere from 400 ft/lbs and up. IIRC some cars were making close to 600 ft/lbs

[SaucyMuffin]

has my thread been jacked? lol

[DigitalGT]

Originally Posted by SaucyMuffin

has my thread been jacked? lol

Yes.

But overall the feeling is still the same. Skip the CGI.....spend the cash on better stuff.