ford's new turbo technology - Focaljet

**biker16** · 03-20-2002, 03:24 PM

Is Ford developing a new turbo system that can both produce more power and meet emission requirements.

mazda and cosworth eginnering are working on the powerplant for the AWD focus Cosworth due in 2004 or 2005. the new turbo I4 engine rumored to produce 280hp from a suspected 2.0 litres, by me [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] .

EuroIV and US tier II regulations take effect in the 2004, and the Subaru WRX, I belive uses 3 catalytic converters to pass today's less stringent regulations. CAT need heat to work, they asorb heat from the exhuast stream. unfortunately turbos also need heat to work well. So to meet regulations without sacrificing performance, a new solution may be needed.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>www.autoexpress.co.uk

sources say the firm is working on a new turbocharging system which promises to increase diesel engine output and response dramatically. Increasing the turbo boost is the simplest way of improving performance, as forcing more air into the engine means that more fuel can be burned. However, simply increasing the turbo size can reduce refinement ? so Ford has come up with a clever solution. The plan is to fit electric motors to the unit. These will respond to throttle input, reducing lag and increasing boost. The electric motor is compatible with existing 12-volt electrics and is controlled by the engine management system.

The first application of this technology is likely to hit the streets away from the performance diesel arena, appearing on a Ford-badged car by the end of the year. Some insiders reckon the system would be particularly effective on the turbocharged RS Focus, providing lag-free acceleration for the roadgoing rally car as it squares up to the Subaru Impreza WRX and Mitsubishi Evo VII.

<hr></blockquote>

the electrically spooled turbo allows more energy to be used to heat up the Cat without affecting performance.

THe cosworth engine is being developed by mazda becuase it will likely be produced alongside the Mazda designed Duratec HE. may share alot of components.

**icemanZX3** · 03-20-2002, 04:50 PM

So is the Turbo gonna be a Garrett?? Like the WRC Focus Uses???

the only three brands of Turbochargers I would put in my car would be Garrett,Turbonetics and Fmax.

I just hope that they are using one of those three...

What is the Aerocharger turbo??? what brand is it?? AeroCharger?? or is it made by someone else?

**Rally Man** · 03-20-2002, 05:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by icemanZX3:
What is the Aerocharger turbo??? what brand is it?? AeroCharger?? or is it made by someone else?<hr></blockquote>

It's an Aerocharger, they make there own and build there own kits too. You might want to take a look at this thread. It has some very good info on these type of turbos because they are not your typical turbos.

**OmniFocus** · 03-20-2002, 05:47 PM

There are many good turbo companies out there, Mitsubishi, IHI or KKK for example.

fmax isn't even a brand of turbo, just a kit with some Mitsu or Garrett.... I think!

**ax0n** · 03-20-2002, 07:24 PM

someone was gonna do it, it might as well be me:

BTW this is the eRam "Electric Supercharger"

[img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

**arskiker** · 03-20-2002, 07:39 PM

Fmax makes turbo kits, they don't design turbos. Turbonetics might put together there own custom components but they generally use Garrett designed parts.

What is wrong with IHI? Porsche uses KKK!

Generally turbomachinery isn't designed like the ordinary 'cold air intake'. Its a little more complicated. Generally there really isnt one better brand than another...well except Aerodyne!

**OmniFocus** · 03-21-2002, 01:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by ax0n:
BTW this is the eRam "Electric Supercharger"
<hr></blockquote>

Hey! The eRam kicks ass! For what, I'm not sure...

Totally off the subject:

The demo video blowing the fire log across the floor is pretty sweet! I'd like to use a couple to built some RC boat/car/plane contraption.

No guys... we don't need to see the Torocharger again! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

**poondobber** · 03-22-2002, 02:32 PM

Bring on the torrocharger!

I swear someone had an electric supercharger designed for the V6 Ford Probe. I wish I still had the link. It was not that stupid e-crap. This actually put out some psi.

This is obviously not a new idea. I love it when ford pats itself on the back with these press releases.

**biker16** · 03-23-2002, 02:50 AM

So the Cossie will use:

an electric turbo spooler
direct injection, for detonation management and higher compresion ratio.

**Ducman69** · 03-24-2002, 12:37 AM

Electric spool assist isn't a new idea and it surely wasn't Ford's idea even if they are the ones that decide to impliment that technology into their turbos. I expect its like Ford using the sweet ATB Quaife differential on the Focus RS... the real props should go to Quaife for the excellent high quality LSD (not so much Ford for using it).

Its an interesting concept. I think the advantage here is that existing turbo tech can be used and simply modified somewhat to accept the electric motor assist, versus having to completely retool and start from scratch with a completely different design. I see no reason this anti-lag option wouldn't work well, and it can likely be mass produced easily for low cost.

Although supposedly the head honchos over at Garrett have meetings every year regarding the cost/benefit ratio of completely retooling for the newer bearing and turbine designs that have proven themselves already.

The E-ram supposedly works best when combined with the Tornado. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Actually it would be really useful for cleaning out wood dust and metal shavings out of those hard to reach places (much more compact than a leaf blower). Or for drying your car after washing.

**estell** · 03-24-2002, 12:51 AM

So how much boost does an eCharger produce? 2 or 3 psi?? Still, that would be enough to make significant power increases.

**Ducman69** · 03-24-2002, 12:57 AM

They claim 1PSI, but thats highly doubtful. I'd be highly impressed if it could meet the demands of even a 2.0 liter engine at WOT from 3-6K rpm.

Ram air usually doesn't develop positive pressure in the manifold (just less vacuum) and thats 100mph of air being rammed down the engine's throat.

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: Ducman69 ]

**P-51** · 03-25-2002, 06:52 AM

You guys know what else the flip-side of electric assisted turbochargers is?

I've heard that they can be used to replace the alternator too! When cruising, the exhaust gas spins the turbine, and the electric motor becomes a generator! So you can eliminate the alternator.

Combine that with electric power steering... and you've eliminated 2 accessories! Then you just have what, the water pump and A/C compressor?

Pretty sweet!

**poondobber** · 03-25-2002, 11:39 AM

If you could replace the alternator with a turbo/alternator then someone would have done it a long time ago. There is no way that would work well enough to produce any useable amount of energy.

**biker16** · 03-25-2002, 06:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by poondobber:
If you could replace the alternator with a turbo/alternator then someone would have done it a long time ago. There is no way that would work well enough to produce any useable amount of energy.<hr></blockquote>

oh yes it would work. imagine in 7 years most new cars will not have belt driven assesories. they will use a flywheel mounted ISG (integrated starter alternator) to electrically power everything, that the belt drives now.

**2001 ZTS** · 03-26-2002, 10:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Ducman69:
Electric spool assist isn't a new idea and it surely wasn't Ford's idea even if they are the ones that decide to impliment that technology into their turbos.<hr></blockquote>

I've got a marine engineering textbook, that is probably 30 years old, and it mentions elctrically assisted induction for diesels at start up and low RPM. They mentioned two stroke diesels specifically so I guess it is for scavenge air?

To start a big diesel (2 or 4 stroke) compressed air is used as thats more practical than a starting motor.

Speeking of way out ideas and deeper into my old text, marine diesels sometimes have reciprocating pump forced induction. Essentially an extra piston that just pumps air. Don't know if is a double acting pump though.

As a purely academic "what if" question: Say you took one of the four cylinders of the Zetec and made it a forced induction pump somehow, would that induction and the power of the three remaining cylinders be greater than all four normally aspirated? What if you had a 6 cylinder and used 5 for power and one for induction? how about an 8?

About the turbo driven alternator, the stock Focus one is 65A and its a 12V sytem so only 780Watts needed? That seems do-able. Am I missing something else?

**poondobber** · 04-05-2002, 11:18 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr> oh yes it would work. imagine in 7 years most new cars will not have belt driven assesories. they will use a flywheel mounted ISG (integrated starter alternator) to electrically power everything, that the belt drives now.
<hr></blockquote>

Uh, we were talking about a turbo used to turn an alternator. Yes eventually every will be electric. Will it run off a turbo? I dont think so.

The aftermarket turbo companies have made huge advancements in the past decade to reduce the amount of resistance to limit turbo lag and produce more psi. If you were to drive an alternator off of a turbo I dont think it would turn enough to keep the battery charged. Im talking torque coming off of the turbo, not speed.

03-20-2002, 03:24 PM	#1
biker16 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Posts: 4,710	ford\'s new turbo technology Is Ford developing a new turbo system that can both produce more power and meet emission requirements. mazda and cosworth eginnering are working on the powerplant for the AWD focus Cosworth due in 2004 or 2005. the new turbo I4 engine rumored to produce 280hp from a suspected 2.0 litres, by me [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] . EuroIV and US tier II regulations take effect in the 2004, and the Subaru WRX, I belive uses 3 catalytic converters to pass today's less stringent regulations. CAT need heat to work, they asorb heat from the exhuast stream. unfortunately turbos also need heat to work well. So to meet regulations without sacrificing performance, a new solution may be needed. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>www.autoexpress.co.uk sources say the firm is working on a new turbocharging system which promises to increase diesel engine output and response dramatically. Increasing the turbo boost is the simplest way of improving performance, as forcing more air into the engine means that more fuel can be burned. However, simply increasing the turbo size can reduce refinement ? so Ford has come up with a clever solution. The plan is to fit electric motors to the unit. These will respond to throttle input, reducing lag and increasing boost. The electric motor is compatible with existing 12-volt electrics and is controlled by the engine management system. The first application of this technology is likely to hit the streets away from the performance diesel arena, appearing on a Ford-badged car by the end of the year. Some insiders reckon the system would be particularly effective on the turbocharged RS Focus, providing lag-free acceleration for the roadgoing rally car as it squares up to the Subaru Impreza WRX and Mitsubishi Evo VII. <hr></blockquote> the electrically spooled turbo allows more energy to be used to heat up the Cat without affecting performance. THe cosworth engine is being developed by mazda becuase it will likely be produced alongside the Mazda designed Duratec HE. may share alot of components.

03-20-2002, 04:50 PM	#2
icemanZX3 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Cincinnati,Ohio Posts: 12,567	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology So is the Turbo gonna be a Garrett?? Like the WRC Focus Uses??? the only three brands of Turbochargers I would put in my car would be Garrett,Turbonetics and Fmax. I just hope that they are using one of those three... What is the Aerocharger turbo??? what brand is it?? AeroCharger?? or is it made by someone else?

03-20-2002, 05:26 PM	#3
Rally Man Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Rally Gurl = wify = hotness Posts: 3,680	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by icemanZX3: What is the Aerocharger turbo??? what brand is it?? AeroCharger?? or is it made by someone else?<hr></blockquote> It's an Aerocharger, they make there own and build there own kits too. You might want to take a look at this thread. It has some very good info on these type of turbos because they are not your typical turbos.

03-20-2002, 05:47 PM	#4
OmniFocus Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Mowin' down the cones. (CA) Posts: 26,272	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology There are many good turbo companies out there, Mitsubishi, IHI or KKK for example. fmax isn't even a brand of turbo, just a kit with some Mitsu or Garrett.... I think!

03-20-2002, 07:24 PM	#5
ax0n Devil's Advocate. Just to cheese you off. Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: In ur srvrz patchin ur krnlz Posts: 24,438	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology someone was gonna do it, it might as well be me: BTW this is the eRam "Electric Supercharger" [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

03-20-2002, 07:39 PM	#6
arskiker Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Concord, NC (from Ottawa, ON) Posts: 3,234	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology Fmax makes turbo kits, they don't design turbos. Turbonetics might put together there own custom components but they generally use Garrett designed parts. What is wrong with IHI? Porsche uses KKK! Generally turbomachinery isn't designed like the ordinary 'cold air intake'. Its a little more complicated. Generally there really isnt one better brand than another...well except Aerodyne!

03-21-2002, 01:01 AM	#7
OmniFocus Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Mowin' down the cones. (CA) Posts: 26,272	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ax0n: BTW this is the eRam "Electric Supercharger" <hr></blockquote> Hey! The eRam kicks ass! For what, I'm not sure... Totally off the subject: The demo video blowing the fire log across the floor is pretty sweet! I'd like to use a couple to built some RC boat/car/plane contraption. No guys... we don't need to see the Torocharger again! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

03-22-2002, 02:32 PM	#8
poondobber Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In your girlfriends pants Posts: 1,040	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology Bring on the torrocharger! I swear someone had an electric supercharger designed for the V6 Ford Probe. I wish I still had the link. It was not that stupid e-crap. This actually put out some psi. This is obviously not a new idea. I love it when ford pats itself on the back with these press releases.

03-23-2002, 02:50 AM	#9
biker16 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Posts: 4,710	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology So the Cossie will use: an electric turbo spooler direct injection, for detonation management and higher compresion ratio.

03-24-2002, 12:37 AM	#10
Ducman69 I pretend to know everything. Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: van by the river Posts: 18,765	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology Electric spool assist isn't a new idea and it surely wasn't Ford's idea even if they are the ones that decide to impliment that technology into their turbos. I expect its like Ford using the sweet ATB Quaife differential on the Focus RS... the real props should go to Quaife for the excellent high quality LSD (not so much Ford for using it). Its an interesting concept. I think the advantage here is that existing turbo tech can be used and simply modified somewhat to accept the electric motor assist, versus having to completely retool and start from scratch with a completely different design. I see no reason this anti-lag option wouldn't work well, and it can likely be mass produced easily for low cost. Although supposedly the head honchos over at Garrett have meetings every year regarding the cost/benefit ratio of completely retooling for the newer bearing and turbine designs that have proven themselves already. The E-ram supposedly works best when combined with the Tornado. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Actually it would be really useful for cleaning out wood dust and metal shavings out of those hard to reach places (much more compact than a leaf blower). Or for drying your car after washing.

03-24-2002, 12:51 AM	#11
estell Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Issaquah, WA, USA Posts: 80	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology So how much boost does an eCharger produce? 2 or 3 psi?? Still, that would be enough to make significant power increases.

03-24-2002, 12:57 AM	#12
Ducman69 I pretend to know everything. Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: van by the river Posts: 18,765	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology They claim 1PSI, but thats highly doubtful. I'd be highly impressed if it could meet the demands of even a 2.0 liter engine at WOT from 3-6K rpm. Ram air usually doesn't develop positive pressure in the manifold (just less vacuum) and thats 100mph of air being rammed down the engine's throat. [ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: Ducman69 ]</p>

03-25-2002, 06:52 AM	#13
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 14,972	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology You guys know what else the flip-side of electric assisted turbochargers is? I've heard that they can be used to replace the alternator too! When cruising, the exhaust gas spins the turbine, and the electric motor becomes a generator! So you can eliminate the alternator. Combine that with electric power steering... and you've eliminated 2 accessories! Then you just have what, the water pump and A/C compressor? Pretty sweet!

03-25-2002, 11:39 AM	#14
poondobber Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In your girlfriends pants Posts: 1,040	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology If you could replace the alternator with a turbo/alternator then someone would have done it a long time ago. There is no way that would work well enough to produce any useable amount of energy.

03-25-2002, 06:50 PM	#15
biker16 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Posts: 4,710	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by poondobber: If you could replace the alternator with a turbo/alternator then someone would have done it a long time ago. There is no way that would work well enough to produce any useable amount of energy.<hr></blockquote> oh yes it would work. imagine in 7 years most new cars will not have belt driven assesories. they will use a flywheel mounted ISG (integrated starter alternator) to electrically power everything, that the belt drives now.

03-26-2002, 10:30 AM	#16
2001 ZTS Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,542	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ducman69: Electric spool assist isn't a new idea and it surely wasn't Ford's idea even if they are the ones that decide to impliment that technology into their turbos.<hr></blockquote> I've got a marine engineering textbook, that is probably 30 years old, and it mentions elctrically assisted induction for diesels at start up and low RPM. They mentioned two stroke diesels specifically so I guess it is for scavenge air? To start a big diesel (2 or 4 stroke) compressed air is used as thats more practical than a starting motor. Speeking of way out ideas and deeper into my old text, marine diesels sometimes have reciprocating pump forced induction. Essentially an extra piston that just pumps air. Don't know if is a double acting pump though. As a purely academic "what if" question: Say you took one of the four cylinders of the Zetec and made it a forced induction pump somehow, would that induction and the power of the three remaining cylinders be greater than all four normally aspirated? What if you had a 6 cylinder and used 5 for power and one for induction? how about an 8? About the turbo driven alternator, the stock Focus one is 65A and its a 12V sytem so only 780Watts needed? That seems do-able. Am I missing something else?

04-05-2002, 11:18 AM	#17
poondobber Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In your girlfriends pants Posts: 1,040	Re: ford\'s new turbo technology <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> oh yes it would work. imagine in 7 years most new cars will not have belt driven assesories. they will use a flywheel mounted ISG (integrated starter alternator) to electrically power everything, that the belt drives now. <hr></blockquote> Uh, we were talking about a turbo used to turn an alternator. Yes eventually every will be electric. Will it run off a turbo? I dont think so. The aftermarket turbo companies have made huge advancements in the past decade to reduce the amount of resistance to limit turbo lag and produce more psi. If you were to drive an alternator off of a turbo I dont think it would turn enough to keep the battery charged. Im talking torque coming off of the turbo, not speed.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode