Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? - Focaljet

**JimmySolo2** · 01-30-2006, 07:59 PM

My car is pretty close. I am sure me and my friend can do the Fire System and the Battery Kill, but doing the SVT Brakes and putting on a FR Head is a bit beyond us.

**68 Touring Car** · 01-30-2006, 08:28 PM

We can help with and have done a Spec car along with many other race cars. If you need some of it done that you do not fell comfortable doing we can we can help you with the things you need help with. We can even pick up and deliver your car. PM me if you like. Where are you located.

**Ted7rns** · 01-30-2006, 10:01 PM

yeah Jim, Leo can help you or anyone on building cars. F2 is also going to be build and sell cars as well.

**JimmySolo2** · 01-30-2006, 11:15 PM

Leo's a bit closer since I am in Pittsburgh, PA. Go Steelers!

**68 Touring Car** · 01-31-2006, 05:54 AM

Jim, You should of had your football team drop it off in Detroit this week.

**2focued4u** · 01-31-2006, 11:54 AM

well f2 be doing install on parts as well? my spec car is getting close to being done just some engine work left on it, but i live in southern arizona

**f2focus** · 01-31-2006, 01:09 PM

Yes we will be doing installs. We are getting ready for that as we speak. We can also pick your car up and drop it off if it makes it easier. Email or call me for details.

**2focued4u** · 01-31-2006, 01:21 PM

thanks i will, who do i speak too there. im looking to get the engine and tune work done on the car

**f2focus** · 02-01-2006, 11:22 AM

You can talk too Ricardo (which is me). We can go over details at what you want to do. Email at ricardo@f2focus.com or call 562-598-3000

thanks and take care

**Knestis** · 02-01-2006, 11:37 AM

We are examining the feasibility of branching out to Foci, including potential customer work, but are waiting on the rumored release of the rally version of the SF rules. The most powerful aspect of this initiative (opinion warning) is its potential as a crossover class - a completely unheard-of concept in the US to this point.

K

**Ted7rns** · 02-01-2006, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knestis

We are examining the feasibility of branching out to Foci, including potential customer work, but are waiting on the rumored release of the rally version of the SF rules. The most powerful aspect of this initiative (opinion warning) is its potential as a crossover class - a completely unheard-of concept in the US to this point.

K

As far as I know, they will be two different cars (Setups). It will be very hard to have a dual crossover class car.

The suspension, cages, wheels and etc will all be different.

**rallyrat** · 02-02-2006, 10:46 AM

A rally cage by design, must be much stronger to withstand impact with immovable objects. Trees and big boulders don't crumple when you hit them, don't ask how I know this.
While a rally cage can be used in road racing, most sanctioning bodies restrict the number of attachment points, and don't allow seam welding.
Rally suspension is substantially different from road racing setups. Strut/shock valving is almost the direct opposite of what a road race setup calls for, plus rally cars would use much softer spring rates. Plus , we would be raising the ride height.
A road race suspension could conceivably be used for a pavement rally, but IMO, would be a dangerous setup on gravel.
Currently building a customer owned ZX3 for ITE class (SCCA), plus designing some rally specific suspension and chassis components for another customer.
Just finished (cage, seat mounts, skid plate) a GTI rally car for customer.

We are just East (15 miles) of Cleveland, Ohio
Email offline if interested in cage/suspension work.
Ken

**BigSandwich** · 02-03-2006, 07:25 AM

Rallyrat. I hear what you are saying about different designs. But there are many many rally cars out there that have not been seam welded and are very fast / competitive. Also it is straight forward to build a cage that fits into both classes of racing. For example the car is Knestis' old car was a dual purpose cage and it didn't hurt his performance in road racing.

As for suspension the great thing about it is that it unbolts from the car with ease. So I see you having 1 set of springs and dampers that you run at road racing and maybe on tarmac rallies. And aother set for gravel rally.

**Knestis** · 02-03-2006, 08:56 AM

12 Hours at the Point - 1st ITB

Blue Ridge Hillclimb - 1st ITB

Street licensed, driven to the track...

...and the fact that I crashed it at a rally is an indication only of my own limitations as a driver.

The primary thing that prevents crossover is a tendency for racers to think that the thing they are doing is somehow more amazing than other things.

Rallyists think road racers can't really drive, and road racers think rallyists are nuts. Each camp has particular little things that they think "absolutely must" or "absolutely cannot" be done to their cars (e.g., seam welding), so they reinforce motorsports tribalism.

There was talk that SF would change this but maybe I expect too much. The fact that there are factions within NASA that are both looking at this solution, but are not talking with one-another is evidence that they are both poised to miss a bet here. Finding a satisfactory compromise between the two disciplines would help BOTH series, improve exposure for Ford (et al.), increase economies of scale for shops and the aftermarket, make the used racer resale market dramatically bigger, and give people who do want to dip a foot in another game the chance to do so.

NASA could REALLY put themselves out in front with this effort but it's going to require some communication and a willingness to de-camp a little.

I'd have the same cage in my car even if I weren't potentially going to put it on the stages. Why would one NOT want something that would "withstand impact with immovable objects" on a road course??

And as far as setups go, how tough is it to change shocks, springs, wheels, and tires? When I was in Europe in the '80s it was SO cool to see drivers entering Group N cars in all different kinds of events, with just an afternoon's work to swap parts...

If the SF road racing powers-that-be think seam welding and additional cage tie-ins are going to be a performance benefit (the will NOT, I'd bet, in measurable repeatable terms), tack a 50# weight penalty or whatever on "reinforced chassis." The rally guys/gals might have to give up welded suspension arms or something, and just have to take fewer risks on particularly rough roads. Whatever, I'd encourage someone at NASA to think outside the box on this.

K

**seanmc** · 02-03-2006, 11:20 AM

^ Amen. What he said. x2. And all that.

It's silly not to allow cross-pollination. The lack of alignment in car prep rules between IT and Rally classes are maddening. Work on accomodating dual-purpose cars, and I think you'd find a lot of interested parties (hint: here's one right now).

K - I salute you, sir. Is the Golf seam welded? Caged-through-firewall? I'd love more details (even offline), as this (schizoid multi-purpose car) is precisely what I'd like to do.

**Ted7rns** · 02-03-2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knestis

The primary thing that prevents crossover is a tendency for racers to think that the thing they are doing is somehow more amazing than other things.

Rallyists think road racers can't really drive, and road racers think rallyists are nuts. Each camp has particular little things that they think "absolutely must" or "absolutely cannot" be done to their cars (e.g., seam welding), so they reinforce motorsports tribalism.

There was talk that SF would change this but maybe I expect too much. The fact that there are factions within NASA that are both looking at this solution, but are not talking with one-another is evidence that they are both poised to miss a bet here. Finding a satisfactory compromise between the two disciplines would help BOTH series, improve exposure for Ford (et al.), increase economies of scale for shops and the aftermarket, make the used racer resale market dramatically bigger, and give people who do want to dip a foot in another game the chance to do so.

NASA could REALLY put themselves out in front with this effort but it's going to require some communication and a willingness to de-camp a little.

I'd have the same cage in my car even if I weren't potentially going to put it on the stages. Why would one NOT want something that would "withstand impact with immovable objects" on a road course??

And as far as setups go, how tough is it to change shocks, springs, wheels, and tires? When I was in Europe in the '80s it was SO cool to see drivers entering Group N cars in all different kinds of events, with just an afternoon's work to swap parts...

If the SF road racing powers-that-be think seam welding and additional cage tie-ins are going to be a performance benefit (the will NOT, I'd bet, in measurable repeatable terms), tack a 50# weight penalty or whatever on "reinforced chassis." The rally guys/gals might have to give up welded suspension arms or something, and just have to take fewer risks on particularly rough roads. Whatever, I'd encourage someone at NASA to think outside the box on this.

K

I personally don't see why a NASA Focus Rally Driver couldn't change the suspension and tires and run in Spec Focus.

I also don't see why a NASA Focus Rally Driver couldn't change the suspension and tires and run in NASA's Performance Touring Class.

I know there's going to be a lot of parts that are very simular in both series. Just because I'm not in a position to talk in public about the Rally Series, doesn't mean that the same people from NASA Road Racing, Ford Racing and NASA Rally are not talking. I do believe that the Rally cars will not have as many engine mods as a SF, but again... that doesn't mean a Rally Focus can't run in NASA PT class.

I think it's best that you wait until the Rally rules are finish before you make any judgements.

Added----
With NASA’s PT Series, you can build pretty much build any type of road race car (including a Rally Car), and they will class it for you.

**Knestis** · 02-03-2006, 04:08 PM

Well, cool - all I needed was evidence that you all are talking amonst yourselves. THAT is a good sign and I interpreted earlier comments as indicating the opposite.

The Golf is IT legal. (Well, was.) The new one is too, without any seam welding or cage mounting points beyond the 8 allowed in IT. Lots more at http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti

EDIT - this isn't the place to go into it but, as a previous PS3 entrant, the PT thing does nothing for me. "Bring anything you want" doesn't seem to make for meaningful classes, to my way of thinking.

**Ted7rns** · 02-03-2006, 05:17 PM

I also believe that the Rally series will only be using Zetec motors and will not be allowed to use SVT brakes.

Since you have driven PS3, then you should see the benefit of the PT Class. This takes the whole class to a different level. Now NASA can have all race cars, not just SCCA IT cars, even spec class cars that have low turns out is different regions.

**rallyrat** · 02-03-2006, 05:52 PM

BigSandwich: All the points you bring out about dual purpose cars are true, BUT, the cage design legal for IT, doesn't allow for more than eight mounting points, nor a tie-in to the front strut towers. IMO, this is NOT a very strong design for a rally car. The other thing to remember, in rally, there are two occupants in the car. R-A requires sill bars, suggesting that they be welded (not IT legal) into the rocker panels, a mod that greatly stiffens the chassis, plus substantially increases side impact protection. Seam welding also, definitely helps torsionally stiffen the car. I believe that SW is required prep on earlier (80's) cars, not so critical on newer cars that are glued and spotwelded, because of the new construction technologies. Yes, there are many rally cars that are not seam welded. Having run my car un-seam-welded for two seasons, there were seams pulling apart, and the strut towers were separating from the upper frame extensions. Seam welding just makes the bodies last longer.
Having crashed hard at STPR in '04, the sill bar on the pass side is the only reason the A-pillar didn't push in and hit the co-driver. This crash happened at over 80 mph, we hit a big boulder on the side of the road. Destroyed everything on the right front corner. A SCCA legal IT cage would have folded up like a pretzel (IMO). We won't even discuss bolt-in cages. As it turned out, we replaced the strut, lower control arm and axle, and drove the car back to town.
Also, (suspension) having a gravel setup and a separate tarmac setup is a good idea, however, we are talking about a spec strut/shock, with no mods allowed, other than alignments, so some compromise in valving is to be expected.

Whenever you try (IMO) to have dual purpose (road-race & rally) car, something needs to be sacrificed to make everything work. My response would be to build two cars, or choose only one venue to compete in. That decision is driven by the wallet.
The comment about adding 50# to a rally caged (seam welded) car for road racing sounds like a good compromise.
Another point that I experienced, autocrossing on pavement gave me some bad habits when applied to gravel, so i stopped autox.

The object of racing is to beat all other competitors, not just drive around the course. I personally won't compromise car setup/prep so it can run two different racing venues, being uncompetitive in both, but thats just me.

Overall, Spec Focus looks like a neat class, hope it draws a lot of entries. My phone and emails about cage and suspension work have definitely picked up, so there is interest out there. As usual, there are a lot of tire kickers, but thats par for the course.
For those on this forum that choose to compete, best of luck. Hope to get to at least a couple of the races this season.

KK

**Ted7rns** · 02-03-2006, 06:14 PM

To be honest any kind of a dual purpose car is going to have to sacrifice one class or another… no mater if it’s a dual purpose road race car or a dual purpose track/rally car. There’s going to be some kinda of sacrifice.

I believe what is more important then having a dual purpose Rally/Track car, is to have a Rally car that fits the needs for rally racing, and a Track Car that fits the need for road racing. A dual purpose car might make both sides unhappy.

That being said, I think you could build a very good Rally Car, but it might not be very competitive in SF. I think the rally car would be more competitive in PT.

**JimmySolo2** · 02-03-2006, 09:37 PM

Holy tread-hyjacking Batman. LOL

**Knestis** · 02-03-2006, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted7rns

... A dual purpose car might make both sides unhappy. ...

I'm not sure I understand why - if we are talking about a spec class.

Yeah - I need to compromise my ITB road racing competitiveness by retaining a cat so I can stay street legal. I compromise chassis longevity by retaining an IT-legal, unwelded chassis. With the Golf, that's a "problem" because I'm competing against other, non-compromised ITB road racing or M2 rallying cars...

...but with a SPEC class, it's not a problem in the slightest, since everyone has to run the same specs. There was some complaining hereabouts that the SF spring rate was too soft. But it's OK to "compromise" the car's setup from something that might ultimately be quicker, for the sake of a conservative, predictable package that's more in line with the affordable, entry-level kind of vision defined for the series. It's the same thing. SF could have more power, right? But it's a non-issue so long as everyone runs to the same rules.

C'mon, SF'ers - you have a chance to make racing history here and do something REALLY different. What is going to make SF a huge success, where GTI Cup, Spec NEON, and the rest are barely blips on the motorsports radar? This has the potential to be huge but it kind of needs to be made part of the manifesto right up front.

I guar-an-damn-tee you that every year that SF exists, the pressure to "make the cars better" will make them incrementally more specialized and faster. Make this a priority and you'll have another tool in hand to dampen the tendency toward rules creep.

Why would you not want more racers buying stuff from F2, Ford Motorsports, and the rest of the series sponsors and suppliers? Wouldn't it be a great promotional gig to put the rallyists and road racers together for something at NASA Nationals - like a combination rallycross/autocross to crown the "best all-around SF driver in the nation?"

And yes, this IS on topic - we have a WAY greater chance of finding a commercially successful niche if we can build, maintain, and rent cars for both road racing and rallying, using the same infrastructure and parts stock. For a relatively small investment in springs, shocks, and bars, I could offset the cost of my rallying fun by renting to road racers for enduros or driver schools. Or split costs with someone who wants to do whatever I don't.

Seriously. This could really help SF thrive.

K

PS - My crystal ball tells me that the PT concept is gounded in some assumptions that work for HPDE or TT settings but are going to be a train-wreck when applied to a "real" racing class. If it doesn't get popular, it might be OK but particularly with a National title out there, it's more likely to catch light for a bit, reach some critical mass, then go super-stupid when people start actually building to the rules, rather than sticking with the run-whatcha-brung philosophy that's driving the move. Five years and it won't look ANYTHING like it does now, is my bet.

**Ted7rns** · 02-04-2006, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knestis

Seriously. This could really help SF thrive.

Maybe so. But, the Spec Rules are done. We're not going to make whole scale changes just to have a Rally/Track crossover car.

01-30-2006, 07:59 PM	#1
JimmySolo2 Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Ross Twp[ N. Pittsburgh] Posts: 2,355	Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? My car is pretty close. I am sure me and my friend can do the Fire System and the Battery Kill, but doing the SVT Brakes and putting on a FR Head is a bit beyond us. __________________ Who is John Galt?

01-30-2006, 08:28 PM	#2
68 Touring Car Premier Sponsor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Motor City Posts: 1,185	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? We can help with and have done a Spec car along with many other race cars. If you need some of it done that you do not fell comfortable doing we can we can help you with the things you need help with. We can even pick up and deliver your car. PM me if you like. Where are you located. __________________ Leo NASA Spec Focus Series Director www.capaldiracing.com "Quitters Never Win"

01-30-2006, 10:01 PM	#3
Ted7rns Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Thousand Oaks, California Posts: 4,229	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? yeah Jim, Leo can help you or anyone on building cars. F2 is also going to be build and sell cars as well. __________________ NASA Spec Focus Series Director \| NASA HPDE Instructor 2002 Ford Focus ZX3 Malibu Blue <23>

01-30-2006, 11:15 PM	#4
JimmySolo2 Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Ross Twp[ N. Pittsburgh] Posts: 2,355	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? Leo's a bit closer since I am in Pittsburgh, PA. Go Steelers! __________________ Who is John Galt?

01-31-2006, 05:54 AM	#5
68 Touring Car Premier Sponsor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Motor City Posts: 1,185	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? Jim, You should of had your football team drop it off in Detroit this week. __________________ Leo NASA Spec Focus Series Director www.capaldiracing.com "Quitters Never Win"

01-31-2006, 11:54 AM	#6
2focued4u TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: nogales,az Posts: 345	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? well f2 be doing install on parts as well? my spec car is getting close to being done just some engine work left on it, but i live in southern arizona __________________ move @#$%$ get out the way, your vtec wont save u now

01-31-2006, 01:09 PM	#7
f2focus Associate Sponsor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Whittier, CA Posts: 2,002	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? Yes we will be doing installs. We are getting ready for that as we speak. We can also pick your car up and drop it off if it makes it easier. Email or call me for details. __________________ Authorized Dealer for: Brembo Brakes, Clutchnet, Vogtland, Eibach, Koni, Tokico, Ingalls, Ireland Engineering, Crower Cams, Supertech, ACT Clutch, ARP Studs, Kyowa Wheels, Nitto Tires, Toyo Tires, StopTech Brakes, Centric Brakes, TurboSmart, Cosworth, Street Scene. www.f2focus.com Vehicles: 2008 Ford Fusion, 2009 Ford Flex (Coming), 2010 Mazda 3 (Coming)

01-31-2006, 01:21 PM	#8
2focued4u TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: nogales,az Posts: 345	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? thanks i will, who do i speak too there. im looking to get the engine and tune work done on the car __________________ move @#$%$ get out the way, your vtec wont save u now

02-01-2006, 11:22 AM	#9
f2focus Associate Sponsor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Whittier, CA Posts: 2,002	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? You can talk too Ricardo (which is me). We can go over details at what you want to do. Email at ricardo@f2focus.com or call 562-598-3000 thanks and take care __________________ Authorized Dealer for: Brembo Brakes, Clutchnet, Vogtland, Eibach, Koni, Tokico, Ingalls, Ireland Engineering, Crower Cams, Supertech, ACT Clutch, ARP Studs, Kyowa Wheels, Nitto Tires, Toyo Tires, StopTech Brakes, Centric Brakes, TurboSmart, Cosworth, Street Scene. www.f2focus.com Vehicles: 2008 Ford Fusion, 2009 Ford Flex (Coming), 2010 Mazda 3 (Coming)

02-01-2006, 11:37 AM	#10
Knestis Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 53	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? We are examining the feasibility of branching out to Foci, including potential customer work, but are waiting on the rumored release of the rally version of the SF rules. The most powerful aspect of this initiative (opinion warning) is its potential as a crossover class - a completely unheard-of concept in the US to this point. K __________________ PhilsTireService.com Team GTI - ITB class winner - 2004 VIR 13 Hours, 2005 Summit Point 12 Hours - with KONI struts, OE and racing VW parts from Bildon Motorsport, and TOYO and HOOSIER tires from PhilsTireService.com

02-02-2006, 10:46 AM	#12
rallyrat TEAM Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA Posts: 137	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? A rally cage by design, must be much stronger to withstand impact with immovable objects. Trees and big boulders don't crumple when you hit them, don't ask how I know this. While a rally cage can be used in road racing, most sanctioning bodies restrict the number of attachment points, and don't allow seam welding. Rally suspension is substantially different from road racing setups. Strut/shock valving is almost the direct opposite of what a road race setup calls for, plus rally cars would use much softer spring rates. Plus , we would be raising the ride height. A road race suspension could conceivably be used for a pavement rally, but IMO, would be a dangerous setup on gravel. Currently building a customer owned ZX3 for ITE class (SCCA), plus designing some rally specific suspension and chassis components for another customer. Just finished (cage, seat mounts, skid plate) a GTI rally car for customer. We are just East (15 miles) of Cleveland, Ohio Email offline if interested in cage/suspension work. Ken

02-03-2006, 07:25 AM	#13
BigSandwich Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,143	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? Rallyrat. I hear what you are saying about different designs. But there are many many rally cars out there that have not been seam welded and are very fast / competitive. Also it is straight forward to build a cage that fits into both classes of racing. For example the car is Knestis' old car was a dual purpose cage and it didn't hurt his performance in road racing. As for suspension the great thing about it is that it unbolts from the car with ease. So I see you having 1 set of springs and dampers that you run at road racing and maybe on tarmac rallies. And aother set for gravel rally. __________________ 2001 ZX3 Spec Rally Car - Build Thread 1990 Audi 90 1985 Mazda RX-7 GSL-SE

02-03-2006, 08:56 AM	#14
Knestis Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 53	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? 12 Hours at the Point - 1st ITB Blue Ridge Hillclimb - 1st ITB Street licensed, driven to the track... ...and the fact that I crashed it at a rally is an indication only of my own limitations as a driver. The primary thing that prevents crossover is a tendency for racers to think that the thing they are doing is somehow more amazing than other things. Rallyists think road racers can't really drive, and road racers think rallyists are nuts. Each camp has particular little things that they think "absolutely must" or "absolutely cannot" be done to their cars (e.g., seam welding), so they reinforce motorsports tribalism. There was talk that SF would change this but maybe I expect too much. The fact that there are factions within NASA that are both looking at this solution, but are not talking with one-another is evidence that they are both poised to miss a bet here. Finding a satisfactory compromise between the two disciplines would help BOTH series, improve exposure for Ford (et al.), increase economies of scale for shops and the aftermarket, make the used racer resale market dramatically bigger, and give people who do want to dip a foot in another game the chance to do so. NASA could REALLY put themselves out in front with this effort but it's going to require some communication and a willingness to de-camp a little. I'd have the same cage in my car even if I weren't potentially going to put it on the stages. Why would one NOT want something that would "withstand impact with immovable objects" on a road course?? And as far as setups go, how tough is it to change shocks, springs, wheels, and tires? When I was in Europe in the '80s it was SO cool to see drivers entering Group N cars in all different kinds of events, with just an afternoon's work to swap parts... If the SF road racing powers-that-be think seam welding and additional cage tie-ins are going to be a performance benefit (the will NOT, I'd bet, in measurable repeatable terms), tack a 50# weight penalty or whatever on "reinforced chassis." The rally guys/gals might have to give up welded suspension arms or something, and just have to take fewer risks on particularly rough roads. Whatever, I'd encourage someone at NASA to think outside the box on this. K __________________ PhilsTireService.com Team GTI - ITB class winner - 2004 VIR 13 Hours, 2005 Summit Point 12 Hours - with KONI struts, OE and racing VW parts from Bildon Motorsport, and TOYO and HOOSIER tires from PhilsTireService.com Last edited by Knestis : 02-03-2006 at 09:14 AM.

02-03-2006, 11:20 AM	#15
seanmc Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Mount Airy, MD Posts: 2,034	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? ^ Amen. What he said. x2. And all that. It's silly not to allow cross-pollination. The lack of alignment in car prep rules between IT and Rally classes are maddening. Work on accomodating dual-purpose cars, and I think you'd find a lot of interested parties (hint: here's one right now). K - I salute you, sir. Is the Golf seam welded? Caged-through-firewall? I'd love more details (even offline), as this (schizoid multi-purpose car) is precisely what I'd like to do.

02-03-2006, 04:08 PM	#17
Knestis Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 53	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? Well, cool - all I needed was evidence that you all are talking amonst yourselves. THAT is a good sign and I interpreted earlier comments as indicating the opposite. The Golf is IT legal. (Well, was.) The new one is too, without any seam welding or cage mounting points beyond the 8 allowed in IT. Lots more at http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti EDIT - this isn't the place to go into it but, as a previous PS3 entrant, the PT thing does nothing for me. "Bring anything you want" doesn't seem to make for meaningful classes, to my way of thinking. __________________ PhilsTireService.com Team GTI - ITB class winner - 2004 VIR 13 Hours, 2005 Summit Point 12 Hours - with KONI struts, OE and racing VW parts from Bildon Motorsport, and TOYO and HOOSIER tires from PhilsTireService.com Last edited by Knestis : 02-04-2006 at 04:09 PM.

02-03-2006, 05:17 PM	#18
Ted7rns Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Thousand Oaks, California Posts: 4,229	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? I also believe that the Rally series will only be using Zetec motors and will not be allowed to use SVT brakes. Since you have driven PS3, then you should see the benefit of the PT Class. This takes the whole class to a different level. Now NASA can have all race cars, not just SCCA IT cars, even spec class cars that have low turns out is different regions. __________________ NASA Spec Focus Series Director \| NASA HPDE Instructor 2002 Ford Focus ZX3 Malibu Blue <23>

02-03-2006, 05:52 PM	#19
rallyrat TEAM Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA Posts: 137	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? BigSandwich: All the points you bring out about dual purpose cars are true, BUT, the cage design legal for IT, doesn't allow for more than eight mounting points, nor a tie-in to the front strut towers. IMO, this is NOT a very strong design for a rally car. The other thing to remember, in rally, there are two occupants in the car. R-A requires sill bars, suggesting that they be welded (not IT legal) into the rocker panels, a mod that greatly stiffens the chassis, plus substantially increases side impact protection. Seam welding also, definitely helps torsionally stiffen the car. I believe that SW is required prep on earlier (80's) cars, not so critical on newer cars that are glued and spotwelded, because of the new construction technologies. Yes, there are many rally cars that are not seam welded. Having run my car un-seam-welded for two seasons, there were seams pulling apart, and the strut towers were separating from the upper frame extensions. Seam welding just makes the bodies last longer. Having crashed hard at STPR in '04, the sill bar on the pass side is the only reason the A-pillar didn't push in and hit the co-driver. This crash happened at over 80 mph, we hit a big boulder on the side of the road. Destroyed everything on the right front corner. A SCCA legal IT cage would have folded up like a pretzel (IMO). We won't even discuss bolt-in cages. As it turned out, we replaced the strut, lower control arm and axle, and drove the car back to town. Also, (suspension) having a gravel setup and a separate tarmac setup is a good idea, however, we are talking about a spec strut/shock, with no mods allowed, other than alignments, so some compromise in valving is to be expected. Whenever you try (IMO) to have dual purpose (road-race & rally) car, something needs to be sacrificed to make everything work. My response would be to build two cars, or choose only one venue to compete in. That decision is driven by the wallet. The comment about adding 50# to a rally caged (seam welded) car for road racing sounds like a good compromise. Another point that I experienced, autocrossing on pavement gave me some bad habits when applied to gravel, so i stopped autox. The object of racing is to beat all other competitors, not just drive around the course. I personally won't compromise car setup/prep so it can run two different racing venues, being uncompetitive in both, but thats just me. Overall, Spec Focus looks like a neat class, hope it draws a lot of entries. My phone and emails about cage and suspension work have definitely picked up, so there is interest out there. As usual, there are a lot of tire kickers, but thats par for the course. For those on this forum that choose to compete, best of luck. Hope to get to at least a couple of the races this season. KK

02-03-2006, 06:14 PM	#20
Ted7rns Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Thousand Oaks, California Posts: 4,229	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? To be honest any kind of a dual purpose car is going to have to sacrifice one class or another… no mater if it’s a dual purpose road race car or a dual purpose track/rally car. There’s going to be some kinda of sacrifice. I believe what is more important then having a dual purpose Rally/Track car, is to have a Rally car that fits the needs for rally racing, and a Track Car that fits the need for road racing. A dual purpose car might make both sides unhappy. That being said, I think you could build a very good Rally Car, but it might not be very competitive in SF. I think the rally car would be more competitive in PT. __________________ NASA Spec Focus Series Director \| NASA HPDE Instructor 2002 Ford Focus ZX3 Malibu Blue <23> Last edited by Ted7rns : 02-03-2006 at 06:35 PM.

02-03-2006, 09:37 PM	#21
JimmySolo2 Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Ross Twp[ N. Pittsburgh] Posts: 2,355	Re: Anyone going to build Spec Focus Cars for customers? Holy tread-hyjacking Batman. LOL __________________ Who is John Galt?