Spec Focus Rally

[Rally West]

Originally Posted by CharlesWA

So much for a decent, relatively cost effective suspension kit.

Yup!! Can the SF roundy rounds only run 1 suspension? NOPE...they have a choice and it aint $3800 PLUS another $1000 for the hub kit to run inside 15 inch wheels. Don't some of these cars come with 15's on them? And so much for a good handling car...No rally car worth it's salt runs a Torsen type diff. Only plate type diffs or spool/welded work well in a rally car. Accel out of a corner with a Quaife and the car will keep pulling right to the other side of the road. I am also bummed on not allowing the Duratec...it is a great motor platform. It would seem that since the roadies can run them there will be lots of folks that have parts, can tune and build, etc. Oh well. NASA list the price for a self-built car to be around $16k...kinda high for a car that is Spec only competetive. The motor hp specs quoted from the NASA RSF are 170 at the crank. Might be a little low compared to G2 or whatever Rally America has.

I really think I am gona sell all the rally stuff and start road racing again...hell I live @ 30 minutes from Willow Springs so why not? It half the price to build, 1/4th the price to race and you get 2 times the seat time. There were people at the NASA Pro race at Willow Springs this weekend that were getting 3-4 hours of race time per day. ALL FOR $300 for TWO DAYS!!! Now that is a deal.

Well the Rally Spec Focii was a good idea though!

[Knestis]

From John Shirley: "...[the rally spec kit is] basically a smaller OE rotor and OE caliper mountings. the rest of the kit is rear SVT brakes plus cables and mountings. This was the only way we could get the cleanances for a 15" wheel to work. ..."

Since it wouldn't be an advantage on the race track, maybe some consideration could be given to allow this option in SF.

That and rally roof vents. Kidding!

Notice here, since there will be some red herrings swimming about, that I'm not suggesting that the SRF suspension be allowed for SF or vice-versa.

Regarding how terrible the SRF is going to handle? We rallied for ages and were glad to have the Torsen or Quaiffe diffs.

I don't know the details but the issue with the Duratec was retaining road-legal emissions status with the approved Ford parts - a necessity for a rally car in the US. It's also inconsistent with the first assumptions of the SF/SRF classes to allow modifications sufficient to make G2-levels of power. That (admittedly mythical) $16K car would instantly become a $26K car.

Once again - VERY impressed with how close the first cut came, between the two rulesets! Well done!

Kirk (off to talk with Ford dealers)

[Silonius]

Can't wait to start reading through the regs.

Great work everyone!

What is the hub and brake kit? It has a ZX3R in the part number. Does that imply that it is a sturdier ZX3 hub?

[localhost127]

do you have to run the hub/brake kit, or can you use stock (zx3)?

trying to figure out what else i will have to buy to be in spec.
you obviously wouldnt have to do all the engine mods, correct?

[Knestis]

That's actually a very good question. Common practice has historically been that "spec" cars have to be completely "spec."

K

EDIT - from the SRF rules:

... Front Hub assembly must be replaced with part included in the brake package listed below. Rear hub may only be changed to add rear disc brakes per the parts package listed below
18.2 Gravel Brakes/knuckles/hub kit:
The front hub and brake assembly must be changed to allow for clearance when using 15” wheels on gravel stages. This is a complete kit including front rotors, rear rotors, and all calipers and mounting hardware. The kit also includes the necessary front and rear knuckles/hub assemblies.

Read literally, 18.2 suggests that stock brakes could be used on tarmac with the 17" wheels. But the previous section indicates that, while the rears MAY be changed, the front hub assembly MUST be changed.

[Ted7rns]

Originally Posted by Knestis

From John Shirley: "...[the rally spec kit is] basically a smaller OE rotor and OE caliper mountings. the rest of the kit is rear SVT brakes plus cables and mountings. This was the only way we could get the cleanances for a 15" wheel to work. ..."

Since it wouldn't be an advantage on the race track, maybe some consideration could be given to allow this option in SF.

You can use the Rally Spec brake kit in SF. This kit is already in Leo's Spec Focus and has worked very well in his car. I believe it's the same kit that comes in the ZX4 ST.

[BigSandwich]

Great news Ted. That means a cross over car would basically be only suspension and alignment.

These rules are awesome. The only thing I would really like to know is how close you have to be to the spec to start racing. If you can keep stock stuff then I think the step in price will be better for a lot of competitors.

I am sick and tired of listening to everyone say how worthless a Torsen or quaife is for rally. If they are so bad why are 80% of the 2wd drive guys I talk to running them? The spec is what it is and everyone will have the same parts. Plus I don't see Kaaz or anyother plate dif manufacturer stepping up with sponsorship money like Ford is. Heck I am currently leading the NASA ESRC points race and I have an open dif in my rally car.

[Silonius]

Originally Posted by BigSandwich

Heck I am currently leading the NASA ESRC points race and I have an open dif in my rally car.

Sciroco POWAH! Nice drivin' Andrew.

That was my question too. I was just working up some numbers as to what I thought the "minimum" spec status would be. Basically I left out most of the engine mods and focused on suspension and cage setup. It wasn't a huge difference but was several thousand.

But Kirk, if I understand from your post, everything on the spec supply sheet must be on your car to be able to compete and be eligible for contingency funds? Even down to the bushings and CAI?

[Ted7rns]

Originally Posted by BigSandwich

Great news Ted. That means a cross over car would basically be only suspension and alignment.

These rules are awesome. The only thing I would really like to know is how close you have to be to the spec to start racing. If you can keep stock stuff then I think the step in price will be better for a lot of competitors.

Well in Spec Focus you can run OEM items or listed Spec Items and anything inbetween to be able to run Spec Focus.

There are a few things you must have to run in Spec Focus
All NASA CCR Safety gear
FRPP 17x7 Wheels
Toyo RA-1 205/40x17
All the Spec Focus Decals

Other items you can use until you upgrade.
Brakes
Suspension
and etc
Sway-Bars

Originally Posted by BigSandwich

I am sick and tired of listening to everyone say how worthless a Torsen or quaife is for rally. If they are so bad why are 80% of the 2wd drive guys I talk to running them? The spec is what it is and everyone will have the same parts. Plus I don't see Kaaz or anyother plate dif manufacturer stepping up with sponsorship money like Ford is. Heck I am currently leading the NASA ESRC points race and I have an open dif in my rally car.

Well, for Road Racing both the Torsen and the Quaife work great and are a most. Every Spec Car that has been built as of today use the Torsen, mainly because of the biases.

[Knestis]

Originally Posted by Silonius

... But Kirk, if I understand from your post, everything on the spec supply sheet must be on your car to be able to compete and be eligible for contingency funds? Even down to the bushings and CAI?

I am NOT an official source for FC or FRC information. I'm just a very interested bystander asking questions and noodling over possible answers.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if John Shirley (the real FRC answer guy) didn't have a list of "must-haves" similar to what Ted has posted, and there might well be some flexibility re: changes described in the rules as "allowed."

K

[BigSandwich]

I would love to see a list like identical to what Ted posted. I have asked this same questions on the nasaforums but I am waiting for an answer.

The only caveat I can think of would be if you are starting with an SVT then you would have to install the spec brakes so you don't gain an advantage by runing OEM parts.

Another thing I have noticed while reading over the rally rules is that stitch welding is specifically allowed so I would infer this to mean that you can't do it. I will ask John about this.

[BigSandwich]

So Anders Green has just started a FAQ on nasaforums to clear up some confusion about the rules. Check it out here.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10220

[localhost127]

So, i have a p-class rally-america rally focus (2000 zx3)
it is basically stock (since running p-class).

so do I *have* to have all the engine mods, diff, gears, etc to even race?
is it an all-or-nothing type? or are the engine mods optional (vs stock) (obviously at a dis-advantage...)

what about the brake and hub assembly for gravel?
are stock going to still be allowed?

so suspension is def. DMS then? which runs about $3800 last time i priced it out?
hmm

[BigSandwich]

Here is a quote from the Faq about what is required to compete in the Rally Spec Focus

What is the minimum amount of prep, specific to this class,I have to do to make a Focus legal?
Gravel Brakes/knuckles/hub kit
DMS 50mm
Team Dynamics wheels
Hankook tires
Racetech seats
Racetech harnesses
Driving Suit properly ID'd
Vehicle properly stickered

Of course all the regular safety equipment like roll cage, fire extinguishers, tow eyes, etcetera...

[SVTRallyFocus]

I think that it was just discovered that the TD 15" wheels used for gravel will in fact fit over the SVT brakes, so if they will, then what is the point of installing a brake kit with a smaller surface area? I think I know why they originally made the kit was to fit 15" wheels on the SVT primarily, but considering they picked a wheel that already fits over stock SVT breaks, it doesn't make sense.

Also, the 16k it is supposed to be to build a car, does that include the price of the car?

[CharlesWA]

Nope, the TD Pro Race 1's (15x7, 45mm offset) will clear the SVT brakes. I have no idea on the TD Rally wheels.

[localhost127]

Racetech seats / harnesses? Is racetech a company???

No, I think i'm going to be staying out of this for a while.
$3800 for DMS (I considered buying DMS when I first built my car last year) is the same price as 2 Rally_America events. I think I'll keep my cheaper hotbits suspension (that I can get repaired locally) and run 2 events for more experience than buying a new suspension (that is also very expensive to get fixed/revalved, etc).



And if I have to change out my sparco seats/g-force harnesses, and buy all new Racetech gear? No thanks.

Kinda upset about the wheels as well. Buying tons of spare wheels (which you need for rally, pre-mounted tires, etc) is going to get extremely expensive. The stock wheels hold up pretty well from what I've heard / my experience.

Looks like I'll be sticking to regular non-spec events for now. Glad to hear this is moving forward though.

[Doug Davenport]

I think the Spec Focus Rally class can be a great thing. Hopefully it will shine a better light on the Rally racing done in the states for other manufactures to get involved at some level.

I look foweard to seeing how things go now that I am starting a complete Spec Focus build for a customer from the east coast.


The base vehicle is a 2002 SVT with 55K from MN.

If you have any questions on the build or parts associated with the build let me know.

Doug Davenport
www.davenportracingusa.com
763.389.2242

[BigSandwich]

Originally Posted by localhost127

Racetech seats / harnesses? Is racetech a company???

Yes they are a company. I believe they are out of new zealand or austrailia. They make really nice seats that can usually be found cheaper than sparco stuff. And the other nice thing is that they offer contingency dollars for all cars that are running in NASA rallies plus they are paying out cash for spec series. I can see why they would want their stuff in the car.

That being said I can see the arguement why if you have a prepared rally car you wouldn't want to sell your sparco stuff just to get up to the spec.

[localhost127]

Yeah, I'll use my cash for more experience than getting into the spec class for now.


Maybe next year

[Clegg]

I've navied for rally cars w/ and without Torsens... and I cant say I liked riding in the car with a torsen much at all... way too scary and too little possitive bite coming out of the corners... as someone said, it pushes like a beyatch. Spool the sucker and be done with it. But with a spool you could bust drive shafts, but even if you do bust a drive shaft you can still make it to the end of the rally on one wheel... I saw Doug Shepard in the Mopar SRT4 last year at LSPR finish the rally and the transit back to Houghton on one wheel. I talked to him and he said its a compromise, cause if it wasnt a spool... he woulda been out of the rally... but then again he may not have busted the axel.

Torsen = not at all meant for Fwd 2WD rally...

[SlideWRX]

Originally Posted by localhost127

No, I think i'm going to be staying out of this for a while.
$3800 for DMS (I considered buying DMS when I first built my car last year) is the same price as 2 Rally_America events. I think I'll keep my cheaper hotbits suspension (that I can get repaired locally) and run 2 events for more experience than buying a new suspension (that is also very expensive to get fixed/revalved, etc).



And if I have to change out my sparco seats/g-force harnesses, and buy all new Racetech gear? No thanks.

Understandably the initial investment is intimidating; I'm planning on LSPR as my first rally (in a used, prebuilt Probe GT rallycar), and my costs for everything (including a car, trailer & entry fees, hotel, etc. for LSPR) will be well under the $16k they talk about for this thing. However, for someone who already has a Focus, I would think this is a great opportunity, especially considering the contingency money.

There are 8 'events' that will be run in 2006, starting in August. $1350 for 1st, $850 for second, and $450 for third. Some of those events are two in the same weekend. Considering most rallies are 50-70 cars for all classes, I doubt the focus class will have even 10 cars. that's pretty good odds of getting some contingency money that would pay off the initial investment (of re-speccing an already existing focus) fairly quickly. I wouldn't be suprised if the Spec class is five cars or less per event, at least for 2006.

I guess we'll see how popular the spec focus class is at Gorman Ridge rally & Rally Tennessee. Maybe people are just keeping quiet so that no-ne else enters and it's easy money.

Tom