Spec Focus Ideas?

[airforcefocus]

I have to submit a deficiency report which is like 10 pages long, so I'll make a quick post now and complete it later when I have time.

The Duratec head IS available, just contact LCR, they have them in stock.

Todd, it just seems that you want the rules tailored more to match the car you currently have built. I feel your need to keep costs down, but in reality, the costs are already as low as they can be. Initial build may be a little costly for us average guys, but in the long run, they will be lower in overall upkeep.

I'm not understanding the beef about the wheels. Don't look at tuner wheels, look at Ford wheels in general as I don't believe the tuner wheels are legal for the series anyway. SVT wheels are super cheap at about $89.00 a pop. I'm not sure where you plan on getting wheels cheaper that would be the correct offset, weight, and lug pattern. Imagine if you showed up to tech with centerlines. How long would you have to wait for tech to verify the legality of that wheel? Sure, they could keep specs on that specific wheel, but what about Brand X? What is the advantage to running another set of wheels if cost is not the factor?

As far as the header and stock parts go, there are a ton of resources avalilable for used parts out there either on forums, or using some of our sponsors like SVT salvage. You can recoup some of the cost by selling what you already have as well. There is no one person that has an advantage in this arena. We all have parts to change over in order to meet the rules.


I'm not sure you appreciate the complexity involved in taking four different engines and then creating an affordable program that fundamentally keeps those four platforms competative in relation to each other. It has never been done before as far as I know. There has been a lot of testing and data that has been gathered for this, not only dyno data, but real track testing. What if the ZETEC rules are changed to allow springs and retainers changed for the benefit of higher revs? What if you have a "Brand X" head at that point and you cannot change the springs on that head? That would leave you at a disadvantage as well. It helps for continuity sake if everyone is on the same page and is given an equal opportunity to run on an even keel.


If you think that there should be valid changes, then submit data to support your requests. If you have no data, then suggest how such data could be gathered.

I have to change quite a few things once I get back from Iraq next year in order to get ready to race. It's not going to be that simple for me either, but until I run the series with a few other cars and see how they run together, I cannot tell you for certain which engine platform I will stick to. I'm still a ZETEC guy at heart though.

[Ted7rns]

Todd the Spec Parts will be the same, we just don’t want people spending 25k on a blue printed motor and get that extra 10-25hp. This is what happen in the Spec Miata's. You have the top SM costing $18-$25 and the bottom cars costing 8k... and what happens The top SM can run 4-5 sec faster. We don't want that, so we’re thinking about adding a cap on HP and Torque that can limit this and making it a level playing field.

If we have a limit on HP and Torque, this will limit people from spending 15K on a motor that might only help them get 5 hp. If someone does.... well it's just 5 hp. In this Spec Series, I don't expect someone to spend 15K on 5 HP.

Yes, We still have the Claimer rule, but We can we can also Dyno the car if we need to if we have the Max HP/Tq.

So Todd, If you don’t go out and spend 15K on a motor, then you will not have to worry about this new rule. This is all about making the playing field level and keeping the cost down. Would you want to know if someone had 15+ hp then everyone else???? Or do you want to have the advantage of have 15 extra hp??? The best way is to make the HP/Torque and weight level. Todd, most likely you will not be above that level unless you’re planning to buy a motor from Sunbelt or etc. This rule is to help you Todd... the Average guy.

Also, you’re crazy if you think we’re going to drop FRPP, they have been great, with their development and the media they have brought to the series. FRPP can bring more to the series then F2, FS and any other aftermarket company can do. Now that being said we can still use these companies on other items to the car and I think it’s important to have this, but WE HAVE FACTORY SUPPORT!!! and I would like to keep that. Remember this is a SPEC series, We will be adding another more open based series later after we get this series up and running (Can you say Focus Cup).

So, think about it Todd. We're trying to limit the HP/Tq and limit the amount of money to be spent on motor mods.... Now, that sounds like a Spec Series to me.

[tracksidelogistics]

How about some economy of scale?
One FR part number and you get
Wheels SVT
Tires
Suspension SVT
Cage
At a considerable savings.

[airforcefocus]

Originally Posted by tracksidelogistics

How about some economy of scale?
One FR part number and you get
Wheels SVT
Tires
Suspension SVT
Cage
At a considerable savings.

Hmmm. Kind of like ordering a Spec Miata package, but for a Focus. I kind of like that idea!

[JimmySolo2]

Originally Posted by tracksidelogistics

How about some economy of scale?
One FR part number and you get
Wheels SVT
Tires
Suspension SVT
Cage
At a considerable savings.

I would say SVT Brakes too.

[BUR_ZX3]

I'd like that. Most def. A Cage and Tires wouldn't be part of the package, but yah.... and take a good chunk off the price and voila! That'd help.

[68 Touring Car]

I would have no problem putting a package together but every vehicle has a different BOM depending on year, condition, engine type, SVT vehicle, ST, ect... I think a FRPP dealer would offer a better discount to a loyal customer if you ordered all the needed parts at one time but as some of you that sell theses parts know there is not a lot of margin to work with. Some FRPP dealers have more to offer the just the cheapest price on parts they might be a dealer a aftermarket shop a race shop or do race vehicle rentals and track prep . There is always support of the products and working with the installs that customers should think about when buying the parts. Every shop needs to pay there workers and feed there family's so if you were a dealer that makes only $100 on a parts order how many hours could you afford to spend on the phone helping and still stay in business? In racing there is a lot of support time and money you can save in the long run. Example: how would you feel if a customer bought a part from another dealer to save $20 on a $500 sale then called you and expect you to spend a hour helping him. If you do help you are being nice but you will go broke and if you don't he bashes you because you refuse help him and need to make a living . I have been racing for 35 years and made some of the same " money saving" choices that end up costing me more in the long term. Then I learned from the other side after being in the racing business for the last 23 years and it happens to me every week. This was not meant to offend anyone it is my .02 I know what it takes and I want to be here for the long term.

[JimmySolo2]

Leo, you've got a PM looking for an estimate!

[68 Touring Car]

Originally Posted by JimmySolo2

Leo, you've got a PM looking for an estimate!

I recived it and will get back to you once I get your info. Thanks Leo

[BigSandwich]

Any hope of adding stich welding to the list of allowable mods? I am thinking strongly about building a spec rally car but it may find some time as a spec focus racer as well since the specs are so close. I don't really see a problem because it is durability of the chasis modification rather than a speed modification.

Andrew

[Knestis]

Looking at the Ford Racing parts, they seem damned reasonable to me. The only thing that really tipped the scale in favor of options other than a crossover Focus is the DMS suspension spec'd for the rally cars. OUCH. That expenditure alone really makes it a tough sell but I'm not going to grouse about it. I just can't DO it.

K

[zurno]

Originally Posted by sundialracing

Guys,
I really don't think we are being politically correct by suggesting SF mods that are not supplied by Ford Racing. Remember its a two way street, they(Ford Racing) need to sell parts to support our series. If you want to make any changes to SF open the FRPP catalog and make your choices from there.
I personally don't agree with the coilovers at this point even if they are #M-3000-Z3 from FRPP. I'm assuming one of the driving factors in the coilovers is the wheel/fender gap. Leo and I put some 225/17 Hankook Z212's on the #68. It took all of the gap out. Actually they might even rub! I have a picture on my phone, PM me if you would like me to send it to you.

maybe ford racing needs to add some more/different parts?

[MichaelXi]

Originally Posted by f2focus

Well this can be a long long conversation piece, but I see the point everyone is making here. But either you make it open or not.

It is awesome to see Ford Racing support this and I think we need to support them as much as we can. We need ford racing to make this a national success. When I built the first car last year we talked about a lot of things and one was how to make this series successful. The first thing was having ford racing back this series. NASA really did not need F2 to make it successful but it did need Ford Racing.

I find funny that we sometimes hurt ourselves by what we do and say. We complain that Ford never hears us and then when they support a grassroot program we don't want to buy parts from them because of the price or fear of the high price! Well last time I checked racing is very expensive...no matter how you try to cut corners. This is just what I think.......

I generally concur, BUT, I'd like to add one thing.
IMO, a 15 or 16 inch wheel should be allowed in the interest of cutting cost.
I'm disappointed that FR doesn't offer much in this category.
I WISH that they would.
A 15x7 and 16x7 at comparable LIGHTER weights than the HEAVY FR 17's would be GREAT.
The 17's have higher Tire costs AND higher Brake costs, even if it's only from quicker wear.
I would think that a "Budget Series" would take this into Greater account, as these are the most common wear items.

[f2focus]

Originally Posted by MichaelXi

I generally concur, BUT, I'd like to add one thing.
IMO, a 15 or 16 inch wheel should be allowed in the interest of cutting cost.
I'm disappointed that FR doesn't offer much in this category.
I WISH that they would.
A 15x7 and 16x7 at comparable LIGHTER weights than the HEAVY FR 17's would be GREAT.
The 17's have higher Tire costs AND higher Brake costs, even if it's only from quicker wear.
I would think that a "Budget Series" would take this into Greater account, as these are the most common wear items.

I would agree with you in part and it is easy to request something that we think would probably be better. But in order to make a wheel that does not exist or to take a wheel from another company and put it in Ford Racing catalog raises the price of it most of the time. Companies support the series in return that you buy from them or else it would not work. Tell me who makes a 16x7 wheel for the Focus and lets see what we can do about it?

[68 Touring Car]

Originally Posted by MichaelXi

I generally concur, BUT, I'd like to add one thing.
IMO, a 15 or 16 inch wheel should be allowed in the interest of cutting cost.
I'm disappointed that FR doesn't offer much in this category.
I WISH that they would.
A 15x7 and 16x7 at comparable LIGHTER weights than the HEAVY FR 17's would be GREAT.
The 17's have higher Tire costs AND higher Brake costs, even if it's only from quicker wear.
I would think that a "Budget Series" would take this into Greater account, as these are the most common wear items.

My 2 cents: There are technical and performance issues with allowing 3 different diameter wheels which you guys are missing. There is a pretty good difference final drive ratios with the different wheel sizes. If that happened then I would carry different diameter wheels depending on tracks. Then we also add the difference in the side wall flex with different sizes to adjust my front to rear rates. So then I will start carrying different transmissions with the 2 different final drives available in the rules and match the with my tire roll outs and track length. Then I would add the data acc. to tell me what combinations would be the best for a given track, Then we can add the 6 speed that is in the SVT for another variable. Do you guys see the can of worms you will be opening? NASA and Ford even though some of you might not believe it has put some time and engineering in this to try to keep it as much a Grassroots class as possible. The goal with this class is to make it affordable and try to make it as even a playing field between models. Bottom line is you will not go racing on the best road race tracks in the country any cheaper or completive between vehicles. Get off the fence and get to the track and you will realize what a great class NASA an Ford have put together for YOU.

[JimmySolo2]

Originally Posted by 68 Touring Car

Bottom line is you will not go racing on the best road race tracks in the country any cheaper or completive between vehicles. Get off the fence and get to the track and you will realize what a great class NASA an Ford have put together for YOU.

For the record I am not on the fence, my new baby is a tyrant and isn't allowing me to buy the toys I want.

Also, I wasn't looking for some 15x7 wheels, I always wanted 15x6 stock wheels or maybe 15x6.5 stock Contour wheels. That should be super easy to add to the FR catalog.

[Ted7rns]

Leo adds a good point, which people might fail to see. Keep in mind when we add options to wheels, gearing, tires and etc. It would allow a team with a lot of money to have different setups for different tracks. The best way to keep the cost down it to limit the amount of options teams can use. This way bigger budget teams don’t have a bigger advantage over smaller budget teams.

This is even more important with NASA now having a National Championship Event.
.

[jinstall]

Put me in the drivers seat. No I am not smiling.

[buster]

Originally Posted by jinstall

Put me in the drivers seat. No I am not smiling.

LCRacing will be renting 2 Spec Focus cars in 2007 in the Great lakes area??

[ZX3autoxtasy]

Originally Posted by BUR_ZX3

This rubs me the wrong way. Either its spec, or its not. Placing a HP/TQ limit should be fine, if you allow open parts (within reason).


I for one do not at all support the mantra of "Well we should only allow Ford Racing Parts" because that doesn't support the purpose of minimising the cost. Basically it gives Ford carte blanche to charge whatever they want for parts... can you say anti-competetitive?

On certain points (Cylinder Heads, etc...) I can see the need for a spec part and restricting the PnP job, etc. But on things like race headers, wheels, etc... I really honestly in my heart of hearts, see it as the Sponsors saying "You use our parts or we poo-poo the series"

I still believe that the stated purpose of minimising the fiscal impact on the racer can be had by saying on things like suspension that you can opt for a coil-over setup with adjustable dampening and spring rates not to exceed XXX is perfectly fine within the realm of "Spec." Why not say "17x7 inch wheels weighing no less than 23lbs" instead of "Ford Racing Wheels Only"? If I can find a less expensive wheel that weighs 25 lbs, and I'm willing to take the penalty in performance because it'll save me $150-250 on wheels (for a set of 8) then so be it.

That's starting to get down to the nitty gritty.

Who want's to have the wheels weighed, without tires, before each race?

It's understandable, and if the FR parts were overpriced since that's all you can use, people just wouldn't race Spec Focus's.





It seems pretty fair to me. The only even iffy thing I see is the suspension. Might I second the notion of Konis. Too bad Ford doesn't sell H & R Race Springs.

[Primaris]

Originally Posted by Ted7rns

... One item we are looking into is having a cap on Horsepower and Torque (to keep the cost down on high price motors). But I don't see that happing in 2007.

I'm guessing the dyno is done to the winners and Wouldn't this be easy to cheat? If so a few switched resistors to the different sensors would make the car run low on power.

[Ted7rns]

Originally Posted by Primaris

I'm guessing the dyno is done to the winners and Wouldn't this be easy to cheat? If so a few switched resistors to the different sensors would make the car run low on power.

Dyno checks can be done at anytime. A lot of NASA classes use this method and it has worked so well you’re going to see more NASA classes do it this was. It’s much easier then doing the old SCCA way that has to check every part in the engine and sometimes can’t be done unless you take the whole engine apart. If you read the current GRM, they talk about this, and how easy it was to check cars at Nationals.

People can cheat using any system, But a lot of people feel this way limits the cheating better then the old way and it’s easier to tech the cars after each race….NASA at anytime can test a car by Dyno’s and/or put a GPS system in any car. Now being that NASA uses this system, They will be much harder on someone that does goes over the HP/TQ to WT Ratio. MUCH harder.

Now the system we might use in the SF series is easier then the classes that use multiple minimal weights. We’ll have a standard Weight of 2600lbs with driver and would have a Max Ratio. Let’s put it this way, if High HP American Iron Car can use this system, It will be much easier for a Lower Power Spec Focus Series to use it.