Spec Focus Rally

[A1Bonzo]

Anybody hear about a Spec Focus Rally series for NASA RallySport and the United States Rally Championship?

[Knestis]

Per John Shirley, the idea is not dead but it's not done either.

I totally understand NASA's initiative-driven approach to new classes but I still think it would be great if the COMBINED race/rally SF effort had some additional direction from National.

The synergy of both options being available would benefit everyone involved.

Kirk (who's still got his fingers crossed)

[focaljet-1]

Originally Posted by A1Bonzo

Anybody hear about a Spec Focus Rally series for NASA RallySport and the United States Rally Championship?

I had a good talk with John Shirley, NASA Rally Sport Director this weekend at Mid-Ohio. I'm really excited about what they are working on and hope to be able to provide more information soon.

[focaljet-1]

Originally Posted by Knestis

Per John Shirley, the idea is not dead but it's not done either.

I totally understand NASA's initiative-driven approach to new classes but I still think it would be great if the COMBINED race/rally SF effort had some additional direction from National.

The synergy of both options being available would benefit everyone involved.

Kirk (who's still got his fingers crossed)

I think headway is being made, which is great.

I will add that from what I know about Spec Focus and my perception of what would be needed to build a Spec Rally car would not jive, economically.

It would end up making the road racing Spec Focus more expensive then it needs to be. Raising the cost of entry into the series simply to make the car compatible with another series would take away what make the Spec Focus so attractive.

If a Spec Focus Rally series is created it seems to me that it will be very economical... for rallying. But, this cost of building a rally car simply costs more then a comparable road racing car based on what I've gleaned from people that have done it.

[Knestis]

Originally Posted by focaljet-1

...this cost of building a rally car simply costs more then a comparable road racing car based on what I've gleaned from people that have done it.

Having spent a lot of time building, driving, and riding in both, I'm very comfortable saying that's not necessarily an accurate assumption - ignoring the cost of extra safety equipment, rally-specific stuff like an odo and intercom, and underbody protection.

It's my understanding that the rally rules aren't different enough from road racing SF, that common ground couldn't be found, but that would require that the parties in both disciplines had an incentive to find it. Now, that's NOT a dig on anyone - just pointing out the way things seem to be, that each group has some very specific ideas about how things should be, and they don't align.

Rally cars tend to use smaller diameter wheels so the road racing brake kits probably won't fit under rally wheel-tire packages and seam welding is likely to be allowed there, too. The road racing folks seem to think that will somehow become mandatory, were it allowed, which I think fails to recognize that the advantage will be minute on the soft springs spec'd for the series.

Other than reinforcing for shell longevity, what about the rally rules would drive up the price of the class?

K

[focaljet-1]

My point of reference is what I've been TOLD a Rally car will cost to build... and KNOWING what a road racing car will cost to build.

As I've said previously, you may hypothesize until the cows come home. However, I don't think you will see parity between the two specs. And honestly, you are the only person that has broached the subject AFAIK.

[Ted7rns]

I personally can't commit on the Rally Series because I haven't read them all. I do think using the brakes they plan to use, isn't a good idea for the Spec Focus Series. I think they would generated too much heat in the wheel bearings using the smaller brakes for road racing. Plus the fact that we would have to replace the rotors and pads more often. We're even looking at possible brake change in 2007 because of possible heat in the SVT brake package.

I also believe the Rally series is only using the Zetec motor with less mods then we (SF) have. The SF is open to all motors and the Zetec needs extra mods to even out the motors.

I personally believe it's more important that the SF crosses over into NASA PT series over a Rally-SF Car. I think there will be more teams that would run a SF in PT then in the Rally Series. A Rally cage would cost too many PT mod points to make it worth having in the series.

We will look into projective rule changes later this year. I believe we need to keep this SF an affordable road racing series that can also compete in PT if there's no other SF cars.

After hearing how the Rally Rules are and how are SF rules are and the direction both series are going, I personally feel that a SF/Rally car series is a dead issue. At least for right now.

[Todd TCE]

From one who competes off road and preps/crews those who run o pavement I'd have to comment that the idea of a 'cross' is great but not realistic. It would prove a compromise to each.

Most off road/rally cars tend to run much softer suspensions with far greater travel.
Having to deal with shock and sring rate changes alone would be hell. Even ride heights would be greatly different. If not parts changes I sure see lots of prep work changes!

Brakes (of which I have a keen interest in one or both cars if so asked) could be somewhat the same but the rally car has the need for smaller wheels in many cases. On the other hand 16" wheels offer some compromise here to share parts.

Regardless of the issues, "hats off" to everyone for keeping the ideas flowing!

[Knestis]

Accepting that nobody is going to change their minds because of it, but hoping some observers might think laterally about the question...

It took us an afternoon to swap struts and springs, and re-align the Golf for the transition from track to rally specs. The Foci may have more challenging parts to deal with but it shouldn't be a show-stopper.

Another day or so got used to install the right seat and co-driver stuff, after we had the seat mount fabricated. The skid pan and mudflaps (not full underbody protection, to be fair) was another couple hours.

BUT all of that is really kind of moot. The greatest benefit to the SF effort - in both disciplines - wouldn't be gained by single drivers actually crossing over from dirt to circuits: It would arise out of increased economies of scale, as drivers of all types commited to the Focus. Prep shops could increase volume, parts costs could decrease as production numbers went up, Ford could get more bang for its buck, and chassis resale opportunities would increase. There's nothing worse than investing $15K in a car only to have it become an orphan without a series - or mired in a region-specific or not-well-subscribed series - and see its value plummet even more than is typically the case with a project like that.

Food for thought.

K

[Ted7rns]

One of the great things about NASA having the PT Series is if a Spec Focus driver is in a region that doesn't have as many cars, They can run in the PT Series.

Even now as the Series is growing, teams can elect to run in the PT series. This way people wouldn't become an “orphan” until the series is fully grown. Because of the success so for in the PT Series, It’s a great insurance for new NASA Spec Series and better insurance then having a SF/Rally Cross-over car.

The best cross class car for the Spec Focus is to have it cross with Performance Touring. If we do make any changes it would be to help the SF being more competitive in Performance Touring. So the greatest benefit to the SF Series is for a single driver to cross over into PT when he or she wants too, and allow both the SF series and the Focus Rally Series to grow into the best series possible instead of have a Road Racing/Rally Hybrid car. I believe a SF/Rally Cross over car will be a disservice to both series.

NASA and Ford Racing is very pleased in the direction that both the Spec Focus Series is heading and what direction the Rally Series will be heading. It is my job to make the Spec Focus Series the best possible Spec Focus Road Racing Series. If the Rally Director wants to make a cross-over car, it would be up to them to make that choice and Integrate our rules to their series. But, I’m sure they also want to make it's the best Spec Focus Rally Series as well.

I think what's important is our sponsors are happy in the direction we are heading in the Spec Series and see the potential success of this series.

[Knestis]

Good point...

The role of PT in the whole NASA national program is going to be interesting, as it develops - since quite literally ANY car is eligible to run there.

It might become a place for second drivers to play on a weekend (if the groups allow?), will certainly be a place for people to test the NASA waters, and as Ted describes, will provide an alterative if for whatever reason someone wants one.

The question is whether it will become a "destination" class, with cars purpose built to the rules. Regardless, it will be interesting to watch.

K

[BigSandwich]

There has been an update on the rally spec focus. Check out the nasaforums. I am interested to see more information when it comes out.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9091

[focaljet-1]

Awesome! Glad to see it's moving forward.

[Ted7rns]

This is good news. I have talked to just about every head NASA Official and they are totally committed to the Focus. They all see good things in using the Focus in the Series they have now, and others in the future.

[Knestis]

Preliminary information from the rally end of things indicatest that their final ruleset will include just one engine option (they need to stay certified) and smaller front brakes to fit inside a 15" wheel for gravel, but John Shirley tells me that the rules are otherwise the same.

K

[Ted7rns]

Yeah,

That is what he told me as well.

[focaljet-1]

Any difference in the cage requirements between the two?

[Knestis]

NASARally rules - http://www.nasarallysport.com/rules-...or_Rallies.pdf

NASA CCR - http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

There's little doubt that someone could build a cage that fits both sets of requirements. The question becomes how to maximize the design to make it appropriate for both disciplines.

A lot of critical rule reading would be a good idea and I'm not very familiar with the NASA cage rules.

K

[BigSandwich]

The Rally Cage rules are basically copy and paste from the FIA rule book. I have only given the CCR's a breif look but they are very similar to the rally cage rules.

There are a couple of required elements in the rally cage that are optional in the road racing cage. Also you might need to run thicker tubing in the rally car. I need to read the rules closer but it seems that if you were to build a rally spec cage that did not pentrate the fire wall you could have a chasis that could compete in both series.

[localhost127]

my cage does not penetrate through the firewall to the strut towers (yet)
ill be holding off on that until more information on this spec is released.

i don't know much about road racing but I assume a major difference is that most road cages probably dont have a sill bar (rally has it to protect from tree stumps) and most rally cars dont have high door bars (to protect from hitting other cars in road racing)

any word on drivetrain/diff regulations yet?

[BigSandwich]

No there is no word on the drive train regs. But if they are hinting that they will be the similar to the road racing spec I would assume that the Zetec cars would be able to get a the 4.06 final drive and LSD.

[Silonius]

This series is going to be alot of fun. I can't wait to see Foci everywhere sliding through the sand and gravel.

[Knestis]

The Spec Rally Focus rules are now posted at...

http://www.rallyspecfocus.com/2006regulations.html

The differences are about what were expected. Assuming that it's possible to build a compromise cage that meets both the CCR and GRR (NASA rally regs) - which it should be - the biggest issue will be the brakes.

The rally-spec version requires installation of an "R" spec kit that fits inside the 15" rally wheels. I haven't found the specifics yet (it's not in the online Ford catalog) but it would seem that a car equipped with them would not be in compliance with the SF road racing rules.

It would sure be cool if the SF rules recognized this option, understanding that it will likely be a disadvantage on a road course.

The rally rules also allow (encourage, actually) the use of longer ARP wheel studs, where it looks like SF does not. The wheels (tarmac spec) are the same but the tires are not - Hankook vs. Toyo. Obviously the suspension would have to be changed between the two - as would the sticker package.

The rally version must retain the cat and only the Zetec engines are legal but that shouldn't prove to be a huge issue. The cat could be removed for road races, and bolted back on for rallies.

It's pretty exciting how close the rules are. Full credit to John Shirley for sticking to the SF rules except where it was REALLY necessary to deviate.

K

[localhost127]