Proper Way to get Licensed? - Page 2 - The Ford Focus Forum

**JB-S1** · 10-24-2007, 12:01 PM

Hi Hector,

Unfortunately, I missed all the great discussion in this thread. My excuse was that I've been driving an Audi R8 at Infineon Raceway (formerly Sears Point) for the past two days. What a fantastic car! I can't decide if I like the six-speed or the "R-Tronic" SMG better. But while I was off beating up on somebody else's cars, there's been some fantastic advice given here.

I'd like to offer a slightly different opinion - not because anybody else here is wrong, but because I think you should hear some alternative options. So I'm not trying to denigrate anybody else's experience or advice, because it's all great.

The NASA HPDE program is wonderful. It really is. However, it is a program based around amateur, volunteer instruction. This is not to say that NASA instructors are no good. Some of them are very good, and some of them have decades of racing experience to share with you. If all you ever wanted to do was run open trackdays without killing yourself or seriously denting your car, then chances are you would be very well-served by HPDE.

However, for the aspiring racer there are some serious drawbacks to HPDE. To begin with, you're likely to get a different guy in the passenger seat every time. Which reminds me... at Infineon I had the pleasure of driving with a variety of pro drivers, with experience ranging from Rolex GT to 24H du Nurburgring. I wanted to learn the perfect line in Turn Six, so I followed four different guys... and saw four different lines. I can only imagine how confused I'd be as a rookie HPDE driver trying to listen to different people on every different weekend. You'll show the most improvement in each session when you work with the same guy.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with amateur driving instructors, but remember that you are preparing to risk your life and your wallet. Why not deal with a professional? A professional instructor will offer you the following advantages:

Training - Professional instructors train in their craft; that is to say, they work very hard at learning how to teach you. And they teach far more often, so they stay in practice. I've ridden with a lot of NASA-trained drivers who have never been taught proper driving position, never been taught hand position, have never learned to heel and toe, don't understand the "Dollar theory" of tire traction, and so on and so forth. A pro will teach you the right stuff in the right order.

Experience - If your instructor's experience consists of club racing - or worse yet, nothing but HPDE - how can he make you a great racer, when he isn't a great racer himself? Professional instructors generally have real racing experience.

Fine-tuning - The concern of an amateur instructor is that you not kill him on-track. The concern of a professional instructor is to make you faster.

Okay, enough yakking from me. It's your life and your racing career, but I think you'll find that professional instruction pays dividends immediately. So where can you get one?

Option 1 - Call Tommy Byrne at the Mid-O School and arrange a couple of schools, using a consistent instructor. No, it ain't cheap, but it works - and the cost isn't that bad.

Option 2 - Deal with Barber or Russell. Again, you have to talk to them ahead of time and build a program for yourself. Most of the "race" programs they offer are designed to offer middle-aged executives a safe thrill.

Option 3 - One-on-one coaching with a professional. There are a variety of dedicated, professional coaches out there. There's a cadre of fellows in Toronto I've worked with - these guys have multiple Indy Lights championships and various pro sedan championships. One of them was a regular GAC podium finisher this year.

Feel free to PM me as well. We've probably met; I ran my Porsche 993 in a couple of WOR events last year.

**Zeitgeist** · 10-24-2007, 06:39 PM

Having picked up my SCCA competition license a few years ago and done the HPDE before and after as well as attending Bondurant 4 day GP road race school I will throw my two cents out there for consideration or another data point.

I autocrossed for several years before doing some HPDE events and attended the McKamey/Evolution phase 1 school. I read a lot and worked hard on my own to constantly improve. In autocrossing I was finishing in the top 5 regionally and my lap times were steadily coming down. I attended the Bondurant 4 day GPRR school and after 4 days and over $4k spent I was dissappointed. It is set up for the lowest common denominator and almost 2 days are spent getting the VERY basics down and up to speed. Lots of track time is nice but actual time spent with the instructor in the driver or passenger seat or with detailed debrief is not that great for the money. Open passing was only during the race part on half of one day of the 4 and racecraft was barely disscussed let alone the main focus or practiced. Needless to say I cannot reccommend it to anyone with much HPDE experience who can heel/toe even fairly. With that said I will say the people there are professional, polite and very nice in all aspects and the facility and equipment is good and safe. I also learned to trail brake better and confirmed some good skills I already had so it wasn't as if I got nothing from it just that the money/benefit ratio is not strong.

The McKamey/Evolution school was so much better value that I regularly say it was the best money I have spent on driving improvement in a school. I have zero ties to the school and instructors but the visual/looking ahead technique they worked with us that day is huge.

Lastly when I got my comp license I was able to wave one school with the Bondurant 4 day GPRR certificate so thats another benefit but the open passing,drive like you are racing because you are was what I was after and missed at Bondurant and a real eye opener. I had a great Instructor ( Erich Heuschele of One Lap and Neon fame ) and he was positive and a great guy. He wasn't able to ride ( racecar only 1 seat ) but I got the second most benefit from that school for driving and racing.

My point is that the $200 and 1 day McKamey and ~$250 and 2.5 days for SCCA comp license were much better values ( in my experience ) then the pro school $4k+ and 4 days. I also don't want to underplay the tons of books,reading and street legal practice as well as auto-X and track days I did without instructors to very carefully try and improve my skills. It takes time,effortful study and quality practice as well as critically looking at yourself always trying to improve.

Good luck

**Zeitgeist** · 10-24-2007, 06:40 PM

BTW if anyone is interested I can post my list of books on driving I have read but its long so I don't want to waste the space if its not interesting.

**brads03zx3** · 10-24-2007, 08:28 PM

There was a list a while back, but I am sure there are others besides me who would be interested in what you've read. I have read 'Drive to Win' by Carol Smith. It was not written to teach somebody to drive a race car, but how to present yourself in the race car world, mostly from the racer's point of view, to sponsors, coaches, crew chiefs, mechanics, etc. to be successful.

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-24-2007, 09:12 PM

I have read a bit from Carol Smith HOw to make your car handle... old school but works!!

Post the list. Probably the hardest part would be to learn strategies...

**sleeperlove** · 10-24-2007, 10:16 PM

I have had 3 different people in the last couple months suggest Ross Bentley's Series
Speed Secrets.
I have read the first on and it is pretty good and hope to work through the rest this winter.

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-24-2007, 11:31 PM

I have heard of the Series but haven't had the oportunity to read it.

**Zeitgeist** · 10-25-2007, 04:12 AM

Its long but here it is. My favorites are the Speed Secrets 1-6 ( I just got 5 and 6 ) and Going Faster.

Bridgestone Winter Driving School: Modern Winter Driving Techniques. Steamboat
Springs, CO.

Aird, Forbes. Aerodynamics for Racing and Performance Cars. New York: Berkley
Publishing, 1997.

Alexander, Don. Performance Handling: How to Make Your Car Handle. Techniques for
the 1990s. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1991.

Alexander, Don. High Performance Handling Handbook. St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing,
2002.

Alexander, Don. Think to Win: The New Approach to Fast Driving. Cambridge, MA:
Robert Bentley Publishing, 1994.

Alexander, Don. Stock Car Driving Techniques. St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing, 2001.

Anderson, George A. et. al. Winning: A Race Driver’s Handbook. Osceola, WI: MBI
Publishing, 1993.

Atherton, Larry. Desk Top Dynos: Using Computers to Build and Test Engines. Surrey,
UK: Brooklands Books, 1996.

Bell, A. Graham. Forced Induction Performance Tuning: A Practical Guide to
Supercharging and Turbocharging. Yeovil, UK: Haynes Publishing, 2002.

Bell, A. Graham. Four-Stroke Performance Tuning. 2nd ed. Yeovil, UK: Haynes
Publishing, 1998.

Bell, A. Graham. Modern Engine Tuning. Yeovil, UK: Haynes Publishing, 2001.

Bell, Corky. Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems.
Cambridge, MA: Bentley Publishers, 1997.

Bentley, Ross. Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques. Osceola,
WI: MBI Publishing, 1998.

Bentley, Ross. Speed Secrets 2: More Professional Race Driving Techniques. St. Paul,
MN: Motor Books International, 2003.

Bentley, Ross. Speed Secrets 4: Engineering the Driving. St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing,
2005.

Bentley, Ross and Langford, Ronn. Inner Speed Secrets: Race Driving Skills, Techniques,
and Strategies. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 2000.

Boundurant, Bob and Blakemore, John. Bondurant on High Performance Driving.
Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1998.

Boundurant, Bob and Sanow Edwin J. Bob Bondurant on Police and Pursuit Driving.
Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 2000.

Clark, John M., Jr. Emergency and High Speed Driving Techniques. Houston: Gulf
Publishing, 1976.

Coyne, Philip. Roadcraft: The Essential Police Driver’s Handbook. Norwich: The
Stationary Office, 2001.

Donohue, Mark. The Unfair Advantage. 2nd ed. Cambridge, MA: Bentley Publishers,
2000.

Doo, Jack. The Front-Wheel Driving High Performance Advantage. Osceola, WI: MBI
Publishing, 1988.

Erickson, Ronald George II. Getaway: Driving Techniques for Escape and Evasion. Port
Townsend, WA: Breakout Publications, 2001.

Fales, E. D., Jr. The Book of Expert Driving. New York: Hawthon Books, 1970.

Frère, Paul. Sports Car and Competition Driving. 2nd ed. Cambridge, MA: Robert
Bentley, 1992.

Genet, Robert. Modern Police Cars. Osceloa, WI: MBI Publishing, 1994.

Henry, Alan, ed. Jackie Stewart’s Principles of Performance Driving. Surrey: Hazelton
Publishing, 1986.

Horner, Jim. High-Performance Wheel & Tire Handbook. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing,
1988.

Lamm, Jay. All-Wheel-Drive High-Performance Handbook. Osceola, WI: MBI
Publishing, 1990.

Lawlor, John. Auto Math Handbook. New York: Berkley Publishing, 1992.

Lopez, Carl. Going Faster: Mastering the Art of Race Driving. Cambridge, MA: Robert
Bentley Publishing, 1997.

MacKnight, Nigel. Showroom Stock Race Car Preparation. Osceola, WI: MBI
Publishing, 1992.

Mavrigian, Mike and Carley, Larry. Brake Systems: OEM & Racing Brake Technology.
New York: Berkley Publishing, 1998.

McBeath, Simon. Competition Car Data Logging: A Practical Handbook. Yeovil, UK:
Haynes Publishing, 2002.

Miles, John. Expert Driving the Police Way. London: Sphere Books, 1978.

Puhn, Fred. Brake Handbook. Tucson: HP Books, 1985.

Puhn, Fred. How to Make Your Car Handle. Tucson: HP Books, 1981.

Reynolds, Matt. How to Avoid Speeding Tickets! The Fast Driver’s Handbook. 2nd ed.
New Freedom Publication, 1987.

Rich, Curt. Drive to Survive. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1998.

Ripley, Paul and Amey, Peter. Paul Ripley’s Expert Driving. Surrey, UK: Elliot Right
Way Books, 2002.

Sanow, Edwin J. Ford Police Cars 1932-1997. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1997.

Sanow, Edwin J. et. al. Dodge, Plymouth, and Chrysler Police Cars 1979-1994. Osceola,
WI: MBI Publishing, 1996.

Sanow, Edwin J. Chevrolet Police Cars. Iola, WI: Krause Publications, 1997.

Scotti, Anthony. Driving Techniques: For the Professional and Non-Professional.
Ridgefield, NJ: Photo Graphics Publishing, 1995.

Sharp, Gordon. Human Aspects of Police Driving. Scottish Police College, 1997.

Smith, Carroll. Drive to Win: The Essential Guide to Race Driving. Palos Verdes Estates,
CA: Caroll Smith Consulting, 1996.

Taruffi, Piero. The Technique of Motor Racing. 13th ed. Cambridge, MA: Bentley
Publishers, 2000.

Turner, Richard H. and Shelton David T. Accident Avoidance and Skid Control. NAPD
Publishing, 1979.

Turner, Stuart. Rallying: Preparation, Navigation, Organization. London: G. T. Foulis &
Co., 1960.

Turner, Stuart and Mason, Tony. Drive it! The Complete Book of Rallying. Newbury
Park, CA: Haynes Publishing, 1978.

Watts, Henry A. Secret of Solo Racing: Expert Techniques for Autocross & Time Trials.
Sunnyvale, CA: Loki Publishing, 1989.

**JB-S1** · 10-25-2007, 09:55 AM

What a great list! I'm of the opinion that every book you read does something for you.

Bit of trivia: Ed Sanow (who wrote two of the books on this list) was one of the authors of Handgun Stopping Power. When I was younger, I did a bit of competitive pistol stuff and I remember that book being a tremendous influence on us.

As Zeitgeist points out, the prepackaged pro schools aren't always a great idea. Evolution school is fantastic, however - they should make street drivers take it! Working with a pro driver on a long-term basis is a winning strategy. Heuschele is an amusing guy - we had a bit of a canyon run in the Carolinas during One Lap 2005.

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-25-2007, 10:33 AM

There are some very interesting titles... Police pursuit stuff?!?!!! OK so If i'm the kind of guy that got tired of reading by just going through your list, which books would you recommend? The Speed Secrets ones I'm going to order to read throughout winter.

**Zeitgeist** · 10-25-2007, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB-S1

What a great list! I'm of the opinion that every book you read does something for you.

Bit of trivia: Ed Sanow (who wrote two of the books on this list) was one of the authors of Handgun Stopping Power. When I was younger, I did a bit of competitive pistol stuff and I remember that book being a tremendous influence on us.

As Zeitgeist points out, the prepackaged pro schools aren't always a great idea. Evolution school is fantastic, however - they should make street drivers take it! Working with a pro driver on a long-term basis is a winning strategy. Heuschele is an amusing guy - we had a bit of a canyon run in the Carolinas during One Lap 2005.

Thanks I have talked with Sanow in the past and have all 3 of the stopping power books as I also am a shooter/ballistics enthusiast.

**Zeitgeist** · 10-25-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InFocusTraSTi

There are some very interesting titles... Police pursuit stuff?!?!!! OK so If i'm the kind of guy that got tired of reading by just going through your list, which books would you recommend? The Speed Secrets ones I'm going to order to read throughout winter.

I would say if I had to pick one book to get first and read and study multiple times and every off season I would say get Going Faster by Lopez from the list. The whole Speed Secrets are also very good. One that usually gets overlooked on lists but really made a difference in all my driving and I believe seperates good from great is Jackie Stewarts principles of Performance Driving.

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-25-2007, 03:51 PM

I just ordered Speed secret 1 and 2

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-25-2007, 03:55 PM

Any educational DVD's?

**Zeitgeist** · 10-25-2007, 04:55 PM

There is a magazine with DVD probably still on newstands in your area called Performance Driving. It covers the basics and isn't bad. Car and Driver has a good video of heel/toe if you are just starting and need help understanding what to do when. I have a VHS video called Going Faster that I believe is related to the book and is subtitled the official textbook video of the Skip Barber school. I also have 2 decent DVDs on rally/snow surface techniques including Finish flick,left foot braking,handbrake turns etc... One is Bridgestone winter driving school dvd and the other is Extreme Driving from John Hauglands rally school.

If you need the basics covered or the sequence and subtle differences that motion/video clears up they can be a real help but like books you have to get out and do it,look like a fool and suffer through feeling like you have two left feet and all thumbs on your hands. You can practice heel/toe,sitting position,steering technique,shifting,throttle to brake transition,brake release and line safe and legal on the street every time you drive without breaking the speed limit or any traffic laws by considering your lane the whole width of the track and driving the line. This re-enforces smoothness and proper techniques.

I also watch other peoples videos of new or local tracks I am going to to see their lines but car differences and their experience can be issues that affect the benefit of this.

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-26-2007, 08:07 AM

hey guys search in youtube for Hector Fontanet so that you can see some of my AutoX, RallyX vids...

I did order the Going Faster DVD and Saw the Skip Barber one but left that for later since it was $26. My Heel/Toe technique is good but I might have to work on smoothness since my rally background I tend to toss the car in the corners. I'm usually fast in the AutoX and RallyX but I can see how the car, tires and brakes wont be able to keep up if I race like that... not to mention traffic...

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-26-2007, 08:08 AM

Oh BTW ignore the Greatest Martial Artist vid .... LOL

**sleeperlove** · 10-26-2007, 08:41 AM

yea tossing the car like in autox/ rallyx doesn't work so well on track. the quick inputs can get you in some serious trouble. One user here on his first track day was doing this and spun his car 8 times

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-26-2007, 08:46 AM

I guess I will have to practice and make sure i'm smooth but still fast...

**sleeperlove** · 10-26-2007, 09:08 AM

yep

you will be practicing for the rest of your racing career. As soon as you start to feel like you are fast and that you have this road racing thing down, you will make some mistake and go flying of track or just blow past an apex or go off the exit of the keyhole in the national championship qualifying race

*runs and hides* etc

**68 Touring Car** · 10-26-2007, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeperlove

yep

you will be practicing for the rest of your racing career. As soon as you start to feel like you are fast and that you have this road racing thing down, you will make some mistake and go flying of track or just blow past an apex or go off the exit of the keyhole in the national championship qualifying race

*runs and hides* etc

Who was that?

**JB-S1** · 10-26-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68 Touring Car

Who was that?

Whoever he was, I think he dented a wheel doing it!

**68 Touring Car** · 10-26-2007, 09:36 AM

You just needed a new coffee table??

**JB-S1** · 10-26-2007, 10:22 AM

It's going to go right next to my 2003 Jordan F1 coffee table:

**InFocusTraSTi** · 10-26-2007, 11:20 AM

HOLLY MOLLY... NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have to tell you that is pure sex. BTW the glass on top is a bit off center...

10-24-2007, 12:01 PM	#26 (permalink)
JB-S1 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Powell, OH Posts: 88	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? Hi Hector, Unfortunately, I missed all the great discussion in this thread. My excuse was that I've been driving an Audi R8 at Infineon Raceway (formerly Sears Point) for the past two days. What a fantastic car! I can't decide if I like the six-speed or the "R-Tronic" SMG better. But while I was off beating up on somebody else's cars, there's been some fantastic advice given here. I'd like to offer a slightly different opinion - not because anybody else here is wrong, but because I think you should hear some alternative options. So I'm not trying to denigrate anybody else's experience or advice, because it's all great. The NASA HPDE program is wonderful. It really is. However, it is a program based around amateur, volunteer instruction. This is not to say that NASA instructors are no good. Some of them are very good, and some of them have decades of racing experience to share with you. If all you ever wanted to do was run open trackdays without killing yourself or seriously denting your car, then chances are you would be very well-served by HPDE. However, for the aspiring racer there are some serious drawbacks to HPDE. To begin with, you're likely to get a different guy in the passenger seat every time. Which reminds me... at Infineon I had the pleasure of driving with a variety of pro drivers, with experience ranging from Rolex GT to 24H du Nurburgring. I wanted to learn the perfect line in Turn Six, so I followed four different guys... and saw four different lines. I can only imagine how confused I'd be as a rookie HPDE driver trying to listen to different people on every different weekend. You'll show the most improvement in each session when you work with the same guy. There's nothing necessarily wrong with amateur driving instructors, but remember that you are preparing to risk your life and your wallet. Why not deal with a professional? A professional instructor will offer you the following advantages: Training - Professional instructors train in their craft; that is to say, they work very hard at learning how to teach you. And they teach far more often, so they stay in practice. I've ridden with a lot of NASA-trained drivers who have never been taught proper driving position, never been taught hand position, have never learned to heel and toe, don't understand the "Dollar theory" of tire traction, and so on and so forth. A pro will teach you the right stuff in the right order. Experience - If your instructor's experience consists of club racing - or worse yet, nothing but HPDE - how can he make you a great racer, when he isn't a great racer himself? Professional instructors generally have real racing experience. Fine-tuning - The concern of an amateur instructor is that you not kill him on-track. The concern of a professional instructor is to make you faster. Okay, enough yakking from me. It's your life and your racing career, but I think you'll find that professional instruction pays dividends immediately. So where can you get one? Option 1 - Call Tommy Byrne at the Mid-O School and arrange a couple of schools, using a consistent instructor. No, it ain't cheap, but it works - and the cost isn't that bad. Option 2 - Deal with Barber or Russell. Again, you have to talk to them ahead of time and build a program for yourself. Most of the "race" programs they offer are designed to offer middle-aged executives a safe thrill. Option 3 - One-on-one coaching with a professional. There are a variety of dedicated, professional coaches out there. There's a cadre of fellows in Toronto I've worked with - these guys have multiple Indy Lights championships and various pro sedan championships. One of them was a regular GAC podium finisher this year. Feel free to PM me as well. We've probably met; I ran my Porsche 993 in a couple of WOR events last year. __________________ www.speedsportlife.com www.autofiends.com 2008 Focus SES sedan -2009 Audi S5 -2006 VW Phaeton 4.2 - 2005 VW Phaeton 4.2- 2004 Porsche Boxster "550 Spyder" -1995 Porsche 911 Carrera --->#187 PTE 1995 Plymouth Neon Sport<-- 1984 Porsche 944

10-24-2007, 06:39 PM	#27 (permalink)
Zeitgeist TEAM Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 157	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? Having picked up my SCCA competition license a few years ago and done the HPDE before and after as well as attending Bondurant 4 day GP road race school I will throw my two cents out there for consideration or another data point. I autocrossed for several years before doing some HPDE events and attended the McKamey/Evolution phase 1 school. I read a lot and worked hard on my own to constantly improve. In autocrossing I was finishing in the top 5 regionally and my lap times were steadily coming down. I attended the Bondurant 4 day GPRR school and after 4 days and over $4k spent I was dissappointed. It is set up for the lowest common denominator and almost 2 days are spent getting the VERY basics down and up to speed. Lots of track time is nice but actual time spent with the instructor in the driver or passenger seat or with detailed debrief is not that great for the money. Open passing was only during the race part on half of one day of the 4 and racecraft was barely disscussed let alone the main focus or practiced. Needless to say I cannot reccommend it to anyone with much HPDE experience who can heel/toe even fairly. With that said I will say the people there are professional, polite and very nice in all aspects and the facility and equipment is good and safe. I also learned to trail brake better and confirmed some good skills I already had so it wasn't as if I got nothing from it just that the money/benefit ratio is not strong. The McKamey/Evolution school was so much better value that I regularly say it was the best money I have spent on driving improvement in a school. I have zero ties to the school and instructors but the visual/looking ahead technique they worked with us that day is huge. Lastly when I got my comp license I was able to wave one school with the Bondurant 4 day GPRR certificate so thats another benefit but the open passing,drive like you are racing because you are was what I was after and missed at Bondurant and a real eye opener. I had a great Instructor ( Erich Heuschele of One Lap and Neon fame ) and he was positive and a great guy. He wasn't able to ride ( racecar only 1 seat ) but I got the second most benefit from that school for driving and racing. My point is that the $200 and 1 day McKamey and ~$250 and 2.5 days for SCCA comp license were much better values ( in my experience ) then the pro school $4k+ and 4 days. I also don't want to underplay the tons of books,reading and street legal practice as well as auto-X and track days I did without instructors to very carefully try and improve my skills. It takes time,effortful study and quality practice as well as critically looking at yourself always trying to improve. Good luck

10-24-2007, 06:40 PM	#28 (permalink)
Zeitgeist TEAM Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 157	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? BTW if anyone is interested I can post my list of books on driving I have read but its long so I don't want to waste the space if its not interesting.

10-24-2007, 08:28 PM	#29 (permalink)
brads03zx3 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 11,661	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? There was a list a while back, but I am sure there are others besides me who would be interested in what you've read. I have read 'Drive to Win' by Carol Smith. It was not written to teach somebody to drive a race car, but how to present yourself in the race car world, mostly from the racer's point of view, to sponsors, coaches, crew chiefs, mechanics, etc. to be successful. __________________ Mountain Tested----'03 zetec ZX3 vs MNTN - 15-1 & ZX3 vs TRACK - 23/1 *JCM Racing #88* Back to Dual Purpose Focusing Vacuum Vulture Racing - We add stiffness

10-24-2007, 09:12 PM	#30 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? I have read a bit from Carol Smith HOw to make your car handle... old school but works!! Post the list. Probably the hardest part would be to learn strategies...

10-24-2007, 10:16 PM	#31 (permalink)
sleeperlove You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Apex hunting Posts: 9,824	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? I have had 3 different people in the last couple months suggest Ross Bentley's Series Speed Secrets. I have read the first on and it is pretty good and hope to work through the rest this winter. __________________ “Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.” - Bruce Lee

10-24-2007, 11:31 PM	#32 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? I have heard of the Series but haven't had the oportunity to read it.

10-25-2007, 04:12 AM	#33 (permalink)
Zeitgeist TEAM Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 157	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? Its long but here it is. My favorites are the Speed Secrets 1-6 ( I just got 5 and 6 ) and Going Faster. Bridgestone Winter Driving School: Modern Winter Driving Techniques. Steamboat Springs, CO. Aird, Forbes. Aerodynamics for Racing and Performance Cars. New York: Berkley Publishing, 1997. Alexander, Don. Performance Handling: How to Make Your Car Handle. Techniques for the 1990s. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1991. Alexander, Don. High Performance Handling Handbook. St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing, 2002. Alexander, Don. Think to Win: The New Approach to Fast Driving. Cambridge, MA: Robert Bentley Publishing, 1994. Alexander, Don. Stock Car Driving Techniques. St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing, 2001. Anderson, George A. et. al. Winning: A Race Driver’s Handbook. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1993. Atherton, Larry. Desk Top Dynos: Using Computers to Build and Test Engines. Surrey, UK: Brooklands Books, 1996. Bell, A. Graham. Forced Induction Performance Tuning: A Practical Guide to Supercharging and Turbocharging. Yeovil, UK: Haynes Publishing, 2002. Bell, A. Graham. Four-Stroke Performance Tuning. 2nd ed. Yeovil, UK: Haynes Publishing, 1998. Bell, A. Graham. Modern Engine Tuning. Yeovil, UK: Haynes Publishing, 2001. Bell, Corky. Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems. Cambridge, MA: Bentley Publishers, 1997. Bentley, Ross. Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1998. Bentley, Ross. Speed Secrets 2: More Professional Race Driving Techniques. St. Paul, MN: Motor Books International, 2003. Bentley, Ross. Speed Secrets 4: Engineering the Driving. St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing, 2005. Bentley, Ross and Langford, Ronn. Inner Speed Secrets: Race Driving Skills, Techniques, and Strategies. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 2000. Boundurant, Bob and Blakemore, John. Bondurant on High Performance Driving. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1998. Boundurant, Bob and Sanow Edwin J. Bob Bondurant on Police and Pursuit Driving. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 2000. Clark, John M., Jr. Emergency and High Speed Driving Techniques. Houston: Gulf Publishing, 1976. Coyne, Philip. Roadcraft: The Essential Police Driver’s Handbook. Norwich: The Stationary Office, 2001. Donohue, Mark. The Unfair Advantage. 2nd ed. Cambridge, MA: Bentley Publishers, 2000. Doo, Jack. The Front-Wheel Driving High Performance Advantage. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1988. Erickson, Ronald George II. Getaway: Driving Techniques for Escape and Evasion. Port Townsend, WA: Breakout Publications, 2001. Fales, E. D., Jr. The Book of Expert Driving. New York: Hawthon Books, 1970. Frère, Paul. Sports Car and Competition Driving. 2nd ed. Cambridge, MA: Robert Bentley, 1992. Genet, Robert. Modern Police Cars. Osceloa, WI: MBI Publishing, 1994. Henry, Alan, ed. Jackie Stewart’s Principles of Performance Driving. Surrey: Hazelton Publishing, 1986. Horner, Jim. High-Performance Wheel & Tire Handbook. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1988. Lamm, Jay. All-Wheel-Drive High-Performance Handbook. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1990. Lawlor, John. Auto Math Handbook. New York: Berkley Publishing, 1992. Lopez, Carl. Going Faster: Mastering the Art of Race Driving. Cambridge, MA: Robert Bentley Publishing, 1997. MacKnight, Nigel. Showroom Stock Race Car Preparation. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1992. Mavrigian, Mike and Carley, Larry. Brake Systems: OEM & Racing Brake Technology. New York: Berkley Publishing, 1998. McBeath, Simon. Competition Car Data Logging: A Practical Handbook. Yeovil, UK: Haynes Publishing, 2002. Miles, John. Expert Driving the Police Way. London: Sphere Books, 1978. Puhn, Fred. Brake Handbook. Tucson: HP Books, 1985. Puhn, Fred. How to Make Your Car Handle. Tucson: HP Books, 1981. Reynolds, Matt. How to Avoid Speeding Tickets! The Fast Driver’s Handbook. 2nd ed. New Freedom Publication, 1987. Rich, Curt. Drive to Survive. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1998. Ripley, Paul and Amey, Peter. Paul Ripley’s Expert Driving. Surrey, UK: Elliot Right Way Books, 2002. Sanow, Edwin J. Ford Police Cars 1932-1997. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1997. Sanow, Edwin J. et. al. Dodge, Plymouth, and Chrysler Police Cars 1979-1994. Osceola, WI: MBI Publishing, 1996. Sanow, Edwin J. Chevrolet Police Cars. Iola, WI: Krause Publications, 1997. Scotti, Anthony. Driving Techniques: For the Professional and Non-Professional. Ridgefield, NJ: Photo Graphics Publishing, 1995. Sharp, Gordon. Human Aspects of Police Driving. Scottish Police College, 1997. Smith, Carroll. Drive to Win: The Essential Guide to Race Driving. Palos Verdes Estates, CA: Caroll Smith Consulting, 1996. Taruffi, Piero. The Technique of Motor Racing. 13th ed. Cambridge, MA: Bentley Publishers, 2000. Turner, Richard H. and Shelton David T. Accident Avoidance and Skid Control. NAPD Publishing, 1979. Turner, Stuart. Rallying: Preparation, Navigation, Organization. London: G. T. Foulis & Co., 1960. Turner, Stuart and Mason, Tony. Drive it! The Complete Book of Rallying. Newbury Park, CA: Haynes Publishing, 1978. Watts, Henry A. Secret of Solo Racing: Expert Techniques for Autocross & Time Trials. Sunnyvale, CA: Loki Publishing, 1989.

10-25-2007, 09:55 AM	#34 (permalink)
JB-S1 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Powell, OH Posts: 88	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? What a great list! I'm of the opinion that every book you read does something for you. Bit of trivia: Ed Sanow (who wrote two of the books on this list) was one of the authors of Handgun Stopping Power. When I was younger, I did a bit of competitive pistol stuff and I remember that book being a tremendous influence on us. As Zeitgeist points out, the prepackaged pro schools aren't always a great idea. Evolution school is fantastic, however - they should make street drivers take it! Working with a pro driver on a long-term basis is a winning strategy. Heuschele is an amusing guy - we had a bit of a canyon run in the Carolinas during One Lap 2005. __________________ www.speedsportlife.com www.autofiends.com 2008 Focus SES sedan -2009 Audi S5 -2006 VW Phaeton 4.2 - 2005 VW Phaeton 4.2- 2004 Porsche Boxster "550 Spyder" -1995 Porsche 911 Carrera --->#187 PTE 1995 Plymouth Neon Sport<-- 1984 Porsche 944

10-25-2007, 10:33 AM	#35 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? There are some very interesting titles... Police pursuit stuff?!?!!! OK so If i'm the kind of guy that got tired of reading by just going through your list, which books would you recommend? The Speed Secrets ones I'm going to order to read throughout winter.

10-25-2007, 03:51 PM	#38 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? I just ordered Speed secret 1 and 2

10-25-2007, 03:55 PM	#39 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? Any educational DVD's?

10-25-2007, 04:55 PM	#40 (permalink)
Zeitgeist TEAM Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 157	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? There is a magazine with DVD probably still on newstands in your area called Performance Driving. It covers the basics and isn't bad. Car and Driver has a good video of heel/toe if you are just starting and need help understanding what to do when. I have a VHS video called Going Faster that I believe is related to the book and is subtitled the official textbook video of the Skip Barber school. I also have 2 decent DVDs on rally/snow surface techniques including Finish flick,left foot braking,handbrake turns etc... One is Bridgestone winter driving school dvd and the other is Extreme Driving from John Hauglands rally school. If you need the basics covered or the sequence and subtle differences that motion/video clears up they can be a real help but like books you have to get out and do it,look like a fool and suffer through feeling like you have two left feet and all thumbs on your hands. You can practice heel/toe,sitting position,steering technique,shifting,throttle to brake transition,brake release and line safe and legal on the street every time you drive without breaking the speed limit or any traffic laws by considering your lane the whole width of the track and driving the line. This re-enforces smoothness and proper techniques. I also watch other peoples videos of new or local tracks I am going to to see their lines but car differences and their experience can be issues that affect the benefit of this.

10-26-2007, 08:07 AM	#41 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? hey guys search in youtube for Hector Fontanet so that you can see some of my AutoX, RallyX vids... I did order the Going Faster DVD and Saw the Skip Barber one but left that for later since it was $26. My Heel/Toe technique is good but I might have to work on smoothness since my rally background I tend to toss the car in the corners. I'm usually fast in the AutoX and RallyX but I can see how the car, tires and brakes wont be able to keep up if I race like that... not to mention traffic...

10-26-2007, 08:08 AM	#42 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? Oh BTW ignore the Greatest Martial Artist vid .... LOL

10-26-2007, 08:41 AM	#43 (permalink)
sleeperlove You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Apex hunting Posts: 9,824	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? yea tossing the car like in autox/ rallyx doesn't work so well on track. the quick inputs can get you in some serious trouble. One user here on his first track day was doing this and spun his car 8 times __________________ “Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.” - Bruce Lee

10-26-2007, 08:46 AM	#44 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? I guess I will have to practice and make sure i'm smooth but still fast...

10-26-2007, 09:08 AM	#45 (permalink)
sleeperlove You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Apex hunting Posts: 9,824	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? yep you will be practicing for the rest of your racing career. As soon as you start to feel like you are fast and that you have this road racing thing down, you will make some mistake and go flying of track or just blow past an apex or go off the exit of the keyhole in the national championship qualifying race runs and hides etc __________________ “Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.” - Bruce Lee

10-26-2007, 09:36 AM	#48 (permalink)
68 Touring Car Premier Sponsor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Motor City Posts: 1,335	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? You just needed a new coffee table?? __________________ Leo NASA Spec Focus Series Director www.capaldiracing.com "Quitters Never Win"

10-26-2007, 10:22 AM	#49 (permalink)
JB-S1 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Powell, OH Posts: 88	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? It's going to go right next to my 2003 Jordan F1 coffee table: __________________ www.speedsportlife.com www.autofiends.com 2008 Focus SES sedan -2009 Audi S5 -2006 VW Phaeton 4.2 - 2005 VW Phaeton 4.2- 2004 Porsche Boxster "550 Spyder" -1995 Porsche 911 Carrera --->#187 PTE 1995 Plymouth Neon Sport<-- 1984 Porsche 944

10-26-2007, 11:20 AM	#50 (permalink)
InFocusTraSTi TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 241	Re: Proper Way to get Licensed? HOLLY MOLLY... NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have to tell you that is pure sex. BTW the glass on top is a bit off center...

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode