2008 Rule Discussion and Proposals

[InFocusTraSTi]

Hey guys don't know if you can or can't but if possible could you post a simple list of things your are considering? It doesn't even need to much detail just to have an idea of what might change or not and also so that you guys don't get multiple request for similar rule changes.

Also If you want to keep this thread clean and want me to erase this reply I can also do that.

Thanks,

Hector

[Ted7rns]

Originally Posted by InFocusTraSTi

Hey guys don't know if you can or can't but if possible could you post a simple list of things your are considering? It doesn't even need to much detail just to have an idea of what might change or not and also so that you guys don't get multiple request for similar rule changes.

Also If you want to keep this thread clean and want me to erase this reply I can also do that.

Thanks,

Hector

We we're considering everything in the rules of possible changes. But, if people want to chime in before start voting on it, it's best to do it now.

And please give of all the information why you think it would good for the series for that change. We’re not going to argue with you about it, we can do that amongst the board

[BigSandwich]

So if I want to get my rally spec focus approved for the road race series can I get parts waiver for the cage or should I make it a rule request?

[Ted7rns]

Originally Posted by BigSandwich

So if I want to get my rally spec focus approved for the road race series can I get parts waiver for the cage or should I make it a rule request?

The Cage is a safety item and that would have to follow NASA CCRs. But I thought it would be allowed in Spec Focus anyways.

But you can check here. http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

[Ted7rns]

Originally Posted by BigSandwich

So if I want to get my rally spec focus approved for the road race series can I get parts waiver for the cage or should I make it a rule request?

You're using 1.75 x.095 DOM right?

[Ted7rns]

Since the Spec Focus Advisor Board is looking at changes to make the series better, I would like to start a thread to get peoples input. There's always room to make improvements to a system, though. So, post suggestions here.

Please be civil about it and remember we're still trying to be a Low Budget Spec Series, not a full blown Touring Car series.

We also don’t want to add spec parts for the sake of adding parts, We would like to hear your reason why it would make the series better.


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I have also moved other post to this thread as well.

[InFocusTraSTi]

First I have to start saying I really like the concept and rules right now making it affordable by making the slower cars only as fast as the fastest factory car. Just emphasizing this because I think that is one of the greatest thing in this class. Low COST would be very important to me.

[jezwald101]

i realize that ford racing is a main supporter of spec focus,,,but there is a lot of other companies out there that make parts for focus and i think they should have a chance to prove themselves worthy,,,as in if a fidanza clutch,exedy clutch,racecraft springs,27,28mm rear bar,,enkei,dynamic,and other wheels as long as they are 7" wide bead to bead,,,,its not about profiting its about being good,competive and and above standards as far as quality and longevity,,i know this will twist all fr people but its about the series and the future of spec focus,,we dont wanna see all foci running all svt euro wheels and dynamic shocks,eibach pro springs,eibach 25mm rear and svt 21 front bar,,,rear subframes with camber adjust,and svt brakes,blue 9012 pads,the only one that will win is the driver with the most experience..not by having a better engineered car and proper setup...think about it........jess

[sleeperlove]

The main point is for the cars to be as equal as possible. That way its a chellenge of driver skill and not who has the most money to throw at it ( see spec miatas with $10,000 engines)

[Matt Marks]

Originally Posted by jezwald101

i realize that ford racing is a main supporter of spec focus,,,but there is a lot of other companies out there that make parts for focus and i think they should have a chance to prove themselves worthy,,,as in if a fidanza clutch,exedy clutch,racecraft springs,27,28mm rear bar,,enkei,dynamic,and other wheels as long as they are 7" wide bead to bead,,,,its not about profiting its about being good,competive and and above standards as far as quality and longevity,,i know this will twist all fr people but its about the series and the future of spec focus,,we dont wanna see all foci running all svt euro wheels and dynamic shocks,eibach pro springs,eibach 25mm rear and svt 21 front bar,,,rear subframes with camber adjust,and svt brakes,blue 9012 pads,the only one that will win is the driver with the most experience..not by having a better engineered car and proper setup...think about it........jess

Jezwald,

I would ask this - If we made all of the above legal, would we not end up at the same situation we have now, but having spent a pile more money? If we made (for example) the exedy clutch/AL flywheel legal, added penske triple adjustable coilovers, 27mm bars, 3-piece wheels that weigh 8 pounds but cost $2000, hoosiers, and heavier springs - would not everyone feel the need to upgrade in order to be comptetitve? We'd then be running a de facto spec series that doubles or triples the cost of the car. You'd then be in a situation where 1) whoever spends the most wins, until 2) everyone spends up to that level, and then you'd be back to where the best driver is winning, and we'd be spending $20k a year to race a car that could be raced in the current format for 1/4 that figure.

There are many avenues open to people who want to compete with their Foci. If you find that the rules are too restrictive, I think that other venues may suit what you want to do with your car better than Spec Focus.

However - I would invite you to re-read the rules (carefully!) and I think that you will find that there are some avenues to legal engineering that can more fully exploit the potential in the car despite it being a "spec" series. Note that engineering also includes specific attention to things like car setup (does that last 0.1 degree of front camber get you more cornering power, or does it cost you more in wheel spin and braking on the straights? (maybe) What's the potential for putting wedge into the car? Does it work? (yes) Can I get more caster with one brand of camber plates than the other (yes). There are many more of these types of engineering and setup questions out there to be explored


There is room for engineering and car setup within the confines of the Spec Focus rules - if you ask around and see what people are running, you'll be surprised at the variations in car setup and prep level.

Of course the more experienced drivers have (and always will) have an advantage. There's no way around that. But with the spec rule set - everyone is given an equal opportunity.

[SVTBuckeye]

While you discuss Ford and Fords support for the series, here is a BIG THANKS to Ford for the check I received yesterday for the results of the 2007 NASA National Championship Race. Much more than I expected, wouldn't buy a set of 4 Toyo's, but go a long way toward it. I'm way happy. :

Here is to Ford and Ford Racing. Salute!

[f2focus]

Originally Posted by Matt Marks

Jezwald,

I would ask this - If we made all of the above legal, would we not end up at the same situation we have now, but having spent a pile more money? If we made (for example) the exedy clutch/AL flywheel legal, added penske triple adjustable coilovers, 27mm bars, 3-piece wheels that weigh 8 pounds but cost $2000, hoosiers, and heavier springs - would not everyone feel the need to upgrade in order to be comptetitve? We'd then be running a de facto spec series that doubles or triples the cost of the car. You'd then be in a situation where 1) whoever spends the most wins, until 2) everyone spends up to that level, and then you'd be back to where the best driver is winning, and we'd be spending $20k a year to race a car that could be raced in the current format for 1/4 that figure.

There are many avenues open to people who want to compete with their Foci. If you find that the rules are too restrictive, I think that other venues may suit what you want to do with your car better than Spec Focus.

However - I would invite you to re-read the rules (carefully!) and I think that you will find that there are some avenues to legal engineering that can more fully exploit the potential in the car despite it being a "spec" series. Note that engineering also includes specific attention to things like car setup (does that last 0.1 degree of front camber get you more cornering power, or does it cost you more in wheel spin and braking on the straights? (maybe) What's the potential for putting wedge into the car? Does it work? (yes) Can I get more caster with one brand of camber plates than the other (yes). There are many more of these types of engineering and setup questions out there to be explored


There is room for engineering and car setup within the confines of the Spec Focus rules - if you ask around and see what people are running, you'll be surprised at the variations in car setup and prep level.

Of course the more experienced drivers have (and always will) have an advantage. There's no way around that. But with the spec rule set - everyone is given an equal opportunity.

I would agree with you but the goals we talked about from the beginning when we were trying this out in 05 and 06 were....car has to look good and the car has to be fast and also affordable! This can be accomplished which we proved it can and I think the one way this series is going to grow a lot quicker is by getting other racers that spend too much and don't win, but can come over to Spec Focus be just as fast if not faster and spend less money!

I will be submitting my packages that are in the works to make the cars faster and priced within FRPP's prices as well as suggestions to bring in more cars. I am working hard to bring in more cars and things are being put in motion to provide an avenue that has never been done before in grass root level racing! I would expect to be launched in 08 but I will talk to John Lindsey about it after SEMA before bringing it to you guys....

[jezwald101]

i do understand the reason why the rules are what they are to keep the cost down to build a spec focus,but it would be nice to see the cars not all looking the same,,as far as hoods,wheels,body kits,,just to make it more appealing by having the cars look"cool" not stock i think would make it more appealing to younger,new, drivers,i understand that some people will go overboard with the cool factor such as full c.f. body and 3lb wheels,,dynamic(mtc) coilovers,,so i understand why the rules have to be the way they are,,,,,thank you for explaining it to me why it has to be the way it is,,,i thought it was just a way to put more money in ford racings pocket,,not that thats all bad though,,,they have helped me out allot so far...

[BigSandwich]

Originally Posted by Ted7rns

You're using 1.75 x.095 DOM right?

Ok, I thought I replied to this last week but I guess I was alseep.

So my cage which is built to the nasa rally rules has 1.75X.095 in the main hoop and then is 1.5x.095 throughout the rest of the cage. After looking at the CRR's my cage meets or exeeds the minimums there are a couple of places where it deviates from the CRRs mainly in where it connects to the body. My under standing is the CRRs limit you to 6 points of attachment to the shell. My cage is connected in 14 places. It also has bars the protrude into the engine compartment now the firewall was patched where the penetration happened and they are now fluid tight.

I have a NASA Logbook if that helps. Is this a NASA question or something that can be handled by the rule committee or is it a parts waiver issue?

Thanks,
Andrew

[InFocusTraSTi]

Originally Posted by jezwald101

...but it would be nice to see the cars not all looking the same,,as far as hoods,wheels,body kits,,just to make it more appealing by having the cars look"cool" not stock i think would make it more appealing to younger,new, drivers...

As far as body kit there is the RS, SVT, Stock and the new Stock SPort package or what ever that one is... I personally like the options. The wheels might be more liberal but then It is not only a matter of diameter and width. Weight and offset would be a huge factor. If I could use any wheels I would go with the lowest ofset that my bearing would hold up to get the widest stance possible... Small stuff like that would between one car or another and not to mention weight... a lightweight wheel can cost as much as 6x the price of the SVT and Ford Racing ones.

[Soundguydave]

I agree, but think that we could look to other series to see how to word more general parts descriptions... For the wheels, how about something like "Wheels must be 17" diameter, with no greater than "X" width, offset to be between "X" and "Y"mm, and must be commercially available with a maximum retail price of $160.00. each." That shoud open the field but still keep the general level of performance pretty consistant. If a manufacturer is able to develop an 8lb wheel that they'll retail for $160 a pop, more power to them...

[Ted7rns]

Originally Posted by BigSandwich

Ok, I thought I replied to this last week but I guess I was alseep.

So my cage which is built to the nasa rally rules has 1.75X.095 in the main hoop and then is 1.5x.095 throughout the rest of the cage. After looking at the CRR's my cage meets or exeeds the minimums there are a couple of places where it deviates from the CRRs mainly in where it connects to the body. My under standing is the CRRs limit you to 6 points of attachment to the shell. My cage is connected in 14 places. It also has bars the protrude into the engine compartment now the firewall was patched where the penetration happened and they are now fluid tight.

I have a NASA Logbook if that helps. Is this a NASA question or something that can be handled by the rule committee or is it a parts waiver issue?

Thanks,
Andrew

In Road Racing they want a min of 6 points, You can have more the only question would the "Typical Cage" all the bars in Spec Focus must be 1.75X.095, it sounds like you might not have enough of the cage at that size. The best way is to take to a NASA Event and have the inspector go over the cage with you and see if it's okay.

Any NASA CCR safety rules, like the cage, cannot be change by the Series or granted a waiver.

[Matt Marks]

The relavant NASA CCR rules are (I think)

15.6.2 Intent

Chassis stiffening is a side benefit of a good roll cage system, but it is not the intent of these rules. Parts of the cage deemed by the Chief Scrutineer, to serve no practical purpose other than chassis stiffening may be considered in violation of the intent of these rules (Note: Some class rules allow for chassis stiffening.). The Chief Scrutineer may order the removal of said parts, or require that the vehicle owner redesign, reconstruct, and re-certify the roll cage if warranted. The removal or redesign of the cage, whole or in part, to comply with these rules, does not imply that penalties will not be issued for violating the intent of these rules.


15.6.13 Mounting Points

The roll cage shall be mounted to the floor of the car in six, seven, or eight points. The cage shall not go through the firewall. The seventh and eighth points must attach to the firewall or front fender wells. All cage attachment points must be mounted to plates. Each required cage bar shall terminate on a plate with a 360 degree weld to the mounting plate, except as specified in Section 15.6.14.B. There shall be only one (1) mounting “point” per plate. This point is defined as where the “required tube” mounts. All additional tubes mounted to that plate must be mounted as close to the required tube as possible

[BigSandwich]

Yeah those are the rules that I had seen. I will take the car to an event and see what the inspector says about it. Thanks for the input.

And yes my attachments points are there to stiffen the car mainly to allow it to survive the pounding it takes racing on gravel.

[Matt Marks]

Also - please see the sticky at the top of the forum with more information on rules publication dates

[JB-S1]

Originally Posted by Ted7rns

Any NASA CCR safety rules, like the cage, cannot be change by the Series or granted a waiver.

It's my understanding that NASA has permitted the FR500C to run in American Iron even though the Grand-Am cage isn't strictly in compliance with the CCR. Perhaps you can find out more about the process which allowed that to occur. Of course, I could be wrong about that, in which case I guess I'll be renting again from Leo!

[Ted7rns]

I check on it. We could be able to do something. I won't be able to find out any info until after the SEMA show.