I have a dead steering wheel?

[ghostrider86]

I am posting this here because i experienced this at the track and figured you guys could relate with it more.

The car. a stock 2003 ZX3 with RA-1 tires.
cold front pressure 27 psi, rear pressure 27psi
Stock suspension. Loose nut behind the wheel!
Alignment 1/8 toe out front, 1/16 toe in rear.

The car handled remarkably well, i was able to carry massive corner speed into the corner and make the car turn, if i was patient with the throttle and let it finish turning i could get on it hard and drive out.

This one section I was going into a deep braking lightly arching right hander , when i would get to the threshold braking just before the car would rotate (right rear wheel inthe air locked up) the steering wheel would go dead like i lost the power steering. It didn't do it every lap, mostly just when i was at 100%. When i let off the brake i would get steering back. (i have video of it if anyone wants to see!)
Was i compressing the suspension so hard that the steering felt that i didn't have power steering??

Has anyone here experience this situation?

[Ted7rns]

I haven't.....Did you feel the tire rubbing on something?

[ghostrider86]

No, i did not. I am running 205-50-15 tires.
I would think there would be plenty of room for those?

[Ted7rns]

Yeah, you should be fine......I would check and change the power steering fluid. They have been known to overheat and not work well. More so in an SVT Focus then a Zetec, but some Zetec have had problems with them as well.

That is the only thing I can think of.

[ghostrider86]

Cool thanks, any suggestions as to tire pressure for the RA-1's? I feel like the pressure might have been low for the fronts.
I corded the inside of the left front tire, but they are take off tires from a miata so i think the wear was pretty severe there already.

[Ted7rns]

I use to run my RA-1s around 32-34 hot. If you're not running a LSD it's easy to cord the inside front tire on the inside turning tire. mainly because you're spinning that inside tire.

[ghostrider86]

Ya know after coming off street tires(spinning wildly) to the RA-1s i really didn't feel much spin (car is stock, read-no power) if at all?
I think i had a tire that was really worn on the inside(take offs) and it just wore it out.

I do have some news on this deal, last night i was looking at the video tape(had one pointing towards the outside tire in the turn) and noticed somethign very interesting.
When i got to the apex and istarted turning the steering wheel, the tire didn't turn but the wheel flexed inside the tire..... its very interesting to look at on tape. I hope it transfers over to the net good enough to seee.

So this is what i see happening
The tire wanted to keep a straight path due to a heavy loading and grip, and I wanted it to turn. So the two forces came together and once the sidewall of the tire flexed as much as it could, the steering wheel locked until i let off the brake and unloaded the tire then the car would turn again, its crazy to see the tire flex and then jump back into round when i let off the brake.......... video to come!

[brads03zx3]

That's called slip angle. I am interested in the video though.

[ghostrider86]

Originally Posted by brads03zx3

That's called slip angle. I am interested in the video though.

I can show you the video but i will probably have to explain it. The quality isn't good enought to pick out what i saw on the original tape on a 40 inch tv! LOL Let me work on it some more......\

I had a thought on this subject this morning, is it possible/likely that under really heavy breaking the wheel spins inside the tire?? That could explain the feel that i have?

[sleeperlove]

Originally Posted by ghostrider86

I can show you the video but i will probably have to explain it. The quality isn't good enought to pick out what i saw on the original tape on a 40 inch tv! LOL Let me work on it some more......\

I had a thought on this subject this morning, is it possible/likely that under really heavy breaking the wheel spins inside the tire?? That could explain the feel that i have?

It might be possible in some situation somewhere, but not on a focus.

[ghostrider86]

Here is your video, make sure to hit the HD button to make the quality better!
You can see the rim poke out from 28-32 seconds and can see the steering wheel unlock at 48 seconds. I described this more in the description of the video. I am working so not much time to write this out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eet2iNftZuM

[sleeperlove]

Yep thats absolutely normal. for the outside tires to do under heavy lateral loading.

[Ted7rns]

To be honest I'm surprise it didn't load even more.

[brads03zx3]

I can't help you on your 'dead steering wheel' issue. Nothing looks abnormal to me. Well, except you left half a car width on track out and let that miata walk away from you

[ghostrider86]

Originally Posted by brads03zx3

I can't help you on your 'dead steering wheel' issue. Nothing looks abnormal to me. Well, except you left half a car width on track out and let that miata walk away from you

Thanks.....for .... your....help..........
I can't help my car turns on a dime. Driving out to the edge only makes more distance between point A and Point B, it wouldn't have been any faster( tried it many times) so i take the shorter route. The line i take makes up 10 car lengths going IN to the corner, in turn there will be sacrifice at the exit with a passenger, and bone stock focus (stock exhaust, stock suspension, this is a H stock Autocross car with 359k miles on it) against a Spec miata fully race prepped and a whole lot lighter!
He should be killing me all the way thru that corner.....here take a look at its design for your self.
The track has been redesigned since this pic, but the decreasing radius in the middle remains the same.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

What woudl you do?

[sleeperlove]

You always want to maximize exit speed, even with only a short straight like that. It is faster to track out if you do it right. The only time its not faster to track all the way out is when there is absolutely no usable straight after the corner and the second corner in combo is followed by a usable straight. Its even more importan to have that extra .5-1 mph of momentum in a stock engined focus where it can't make up on power.

[brads03zx3]

Originally Posted by ghostrider86

What woudl you do?

I would do exactly like myself and sleeperlove stated. And my car turns better than yours. You paid for the whole track, use it. There is only a few instances when tracking out will cost time. Like sleeperlove said, if a combination turn requires the first turn to be sacrificed as the exit speed of the last corner is the most important. In this case, you will carry quite a bit more speed if you release the car to the edge of the track. If the car doesn't have enough speed to get there on its own, you are over-braking the car into that corner. To me, it doesn't look like you are over braking, but you could get on the gas quite a bit sooner.

And I know how fast an SM car is

[ghostrider86]

Originally Posted by sleeperlove

You always want to maximize exit speed, even with only a short straight like that. It is faster to track out if you do it right. The only time its not faster to track all the way out is when there is absolutely no usable straight after the corner and the second corner in combo is followed by a usable straight. Its even more importan to have that extra .5-1 mph of momentum in a stock engined focus where it can't make up on power.

I know you are right, all i have read says slow in fast out. I guess i got my self used to that corner on street tires where turning and accelerating didn't mix, so i never drove wide, i straightened it up so i could get both tires to grip for drive out. Now that i am on slicks and have some traction i need to change my line there some. The line i took there didnt' need a drive out because i turned the car too much in the middle of the corner.

I will post some laps up from the event so you guys can see the whole track. It will be much editing! It might take a min so don't expect anything tomorrow!

[Ted7rns]

There is a good thing to keep in mind, every time you turn your wheel you’re scrubbing off speed.

What it looks like to me is on this double apex turn you Apex’d too early on the first turn that caused you not to be in the correct location or mark for the 2nd apex which then made you miss the 2nd apex late and was not able to get on the throttle sooner and no track out at all. Basically you pinched the whole double apex because you early apex the first part of the double apex.

But like what Brad and Sleeperlove have said, exit speed is the key.

[sleeperlove]

Just for fun and because I'd rather talk about racing than read about cancer...

Think of it this way, say we are both in Spec foci that accelerate at the exact same rate, we are turning onto the main straight at random track X that takes us 10 seconds to travel end to end.

You pinch the turn off like in your video exiting at a cool 50mph, I however drive it all the way out to the curbing and exit at 51mph that means I am traveling approx 1.5 feet/second faster than you.

That means I could have exited the turn at your back bumper and be nearly clear and ahead of you as we get to the braking point for the next turn. Its not a big deal in HPDE but once you go racing thats the kind of thing where people will beat you.

Races on most levels are won on corner exit, not under braking like everyone thinks. Braking holds the smallest and last amount of time you will find on the race track.

[ghostrider86]

Originally Posted by sleeperlove

Just for fun and because I'd rather talk about racing than read about cancer...

Think of it this way, say we are both in Spec foci that accelerate at the exact same rate, we are turning onto the main straight at random track X that takes us 10 seconds to travel end to end.

You pinch the turn off like in your video exiting at a cool 50mph, I however drive it all the way out to the curbing and exit at 51mph that means I am traveling approx 1.5 feet/second faster than you.

That means I could have exited the turn at your back bumper and be nearly clear and ahead of you as we get to the braking point for the next turn. Its not a big deal in HPDE but once you go racing thats the kind of thing where people will beat you.

Races on most levels are won on corner exit, not under braking like everyone thinks. Braking holds the smallest and last amount of time you will find on the race track.

I have much to learn...........
After i post up some other video you can check it out and tell me what you think!

[brads03zx3]

Originally Posted by sleeperlove

Races on most levels are won on corner exit, not under braking like everyone thinks. Braking holds the smallest and last amount of time you will find on the race track.

Absolutely!

[blueovaldave]

Originally Posted by sleeperlove

Races on most levels are won on corner exit, not under braking like everyone thinks. Braking holds the smallest and last amount of time you will find on the race track.

This is something I have learned alot while Time Trialing. It is all corner exit. Every good instructor I have had has told me the same basic philosphy.

Easy into the corner, Hard out of the corner.

With my new GPS system I can actually watch this in the data it captures. I cut just over 4 seconds out of a starting run to an ending run by watching this on the computer.

[ghostrider86]

Originally Posted by blueovaldave

This is something I have learned alot while Time Trialing. It is all corner exit. Every good instructor I have had has told me the same basic philosphy.

Easy into the corner, Hard out of the corner.

With my new GPS system I can actually watch this in the data it captures. I cut just over 4 seconds out of a starting run to an ending run by watching this on the computer.

Yes i can't wait to get one of those GPS deals!

[blueovaldave]

Originally Posted by ghostrider86

Yes i can't wait to get one of those GPS deals!

Here you go. This is the best thing I have messed with so far. I tested 2 or 3 with other guys and I like this one best based on pricing, ect.

http://rlcracing.com/Products.htm



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