First autocross... - Focaljet

**teamDFL** · 04-06-2001, 06:51 PM

...in my Focus is Sunday (thanks Jason). So what tire pressures should I run? I haven't used street tires in about 7 years and have no idea. The car is stock, and has 205-50/16 Sumitomo HTRZII's.

Rich
teamDFL...pylon pirate

**FordEurope.net** · 04-06-2001, 07:34 PM

Good luck, have someone take pictures!

------------------
Dave Mathijs ~ 2000 Ford Focus 1.8TDdi
webmaster FordEurope.net
"If you are going through hell, keep going."

**ZXmurph** · 04-06-2001, 11:46 PM

Go DFL!!
I have an event on Sunday- but with <500miles on the ZX3 it's still screamin' GTI time.

Pressure? Hell - enough so you don't beat the living @#$% out of them- maybe 40 or so and "tune" from there.

Have fun in slo-mo, understeering hell compared to your A-mod life. You have been "left footin" that brake recently haven't you?
I'll get it out there soon- on street rubber too.

Just RUn iT!

------------------
Hows about more go, less show.......
2001 pitch black ZX3 "special order"- no power- Premium Grp + Advance-Trac
1984 VW GTI 2.0 16v "Street Mod" Auto-Xer 1900lbs/155hp- (refereed and certified C.A.R.B. swap)
1979 VW RABBIT Diesel "S.U.V." 45mpg Surfmobile- wipe your feet after getting OUT-(C.A.R.B.'s evil smoking nemesis)

**P-51** · 04-07-2001, 08:57 PM

Rich, start at 45-45 and play with the rear pressure from there. You'll probably need to keep the front at 45.

**focusownerskid** · 04-08-2001, 02:25 AM

Good Luck Rich...And Above All Have Fun!!!!!!!!

drew
fok

**greenkonafocus** · 04-08-2001, 04:07 AM

I run 45-48 front and 42-44 in the rear on my 16" Firestones. Hope it helps. BTW, You'll be shocked how good it does. Mine kicked the crap out of my old RX-7. I even have fun beating up on the occasional vette and camaro or fireturd. HEHE...

Have fun and let us know how it goes.

------------------
"Only little boys wear bowties."

**Y2K ZX3** · 04-09-2001, 02:25 AM

Rich....
How did the autocross go? I'm sure you had a blast...

PS....the big day is rapidly approaching...the best of luck to you both...

xo
mom

**Ducman69** · 04-09-2001, 03:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>PS....the big day is rapidly approaching...the best of luck to you both<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your not going to marry your car are you? The exhaust isn't comfortable, or so I've been told.

So, tell us how it went (with lots of illustrations of course)!

**Y2K ZX3** · 04-09-2001, 09:36 AM

Hehehe.....Ducman69 your funny...no, Rich's big day will be when his wife has their baby in the next couple of weeks

mom

**jmauld** · 04-09-2001, 10:07 AM

Rich did awesome with the focus! He had that car bouncing around on three wheels for most of the course! He also came in a very close 2nd place against an extremely good driver in very well prepped Sentra SE-R. And Rich's Focus is very close to stock!!!

For the tire pressure. Get some shoe polish and put on the tires. That way you can see how far the tires are rolling over. You only want them to roll over to the edge of the tread, so put the appropriate amount of pressure in the tires for that. Just be sure to get some polish or chalk that will wash off easily!

Jason

------------------
FocusMods.com
89 Mirage Turbo
95 Talon TSi AWD/13.3@99mph/(forsale)
Focus ZX3 (looking for one)

**P-51** · 04-09-2001, 10:50 AM

I just had my first event of the season too.

None of the regulars (Mike, Luc) showed up because it was a Corvette Club event, but it was good this time!!!

The course was pretty fun. They set up one chicane that the Foci could just squeeze right through without turning.

FTD was a mid 35, and I turned a 39.0 so I'd say that was pretty good for a Focus with only RA1's, and a rear swaybar. Oh yeah, and some weight reduction...

Can't wait to get shocks now!!! This season is gonna be awesome!

With the rear Eibach bar installed, but not the front, the handling was PERFECT! Absolutely spot on! The only time you got understeer is if you go in way too hot.

I have to wait for the results, but I beat a lot of Vettes and other cool cars.

**teamDFL** · 04-09-2001, 08:33 PM

Yes, the event was a lot of fun. www.thscc.com should have all the results soon, so you can see that Jason is flatering me with undeserved praise. He spanked me by quite a bit, as did most others.

I ran 42 psi front and 36 psi rear. I got quite a bit of front roll over and should have gone higher. However, since we only had four runs and I was in a new car, I felt that predicatability was more important so didn't change them.

The AFX UDP (thanks a bunch Tony D @ New Edge) that I installed the day before makes a difference you can feel. Almost like turning off the A/C although it was never on. Definitely recomend it.

I had never driven a front drive car in an autocross very hard, as they always belonged to someone else. Seeing as how this was my first time, the learning curve was steep. The only way I could get the car to do anything resembling turn in was to left foot brake like crazy. Glad of the ABS as am I sure it saved a couple of flat spots when I got into the dusty parts. Overall the car plows like a John Deere in sweepers, but is still amazingly fun to drive. Oversteer is so slow and progressive that if you actually spin one of these cars, I can honestly say, never buy a rear driver.

I did not find the car to be as horrendously underdamped as many reported. Sure, stiffer would be better, but on street tires, it is not a huge deal. I now know I will not replace them until they are shot, as for my purposes they are adequate. This car won't get race tires.

So what is the best way to get the mid corner push out? Rear sway bar? Alignment?

Rich
teamDFL...front drive and rear drive

**P-51** · 04-10-2001, 11:46 AM

I had great results with my rear only Eibach bar.

The was perfectly balanced, phenomenal.

Of course, your milage may vary. We seem to be driving very different cars.

Mine never plowed in sweepers, and it does roll tons...

Did you get the rear wheel up? If not, you probably just weren't pushing enough to feel the roll. I was tri-poding it around the track all day!

**jmauld** · 04-10-2001, 02:11 PM

Oh, come on Rich, I only ran a faster time because I was driving a car with stickies, 450lb front springs, 350lb rear springs, and around 180hp. I should've been more than 2 seconds faster, or at least the car could've been with a decent driver. The people that normally watch me drive said I was driving like a wuss... I need to get more acquanted to my new autocrosser. :-) I also need a rear swaybar. :-) I think that I'm going to order that ADDCO bar in the next week or so.

From my point of view, I think Rich had one of the rear wheels off the ground around nearly every corner. (At least the ones that I could see). I couldn't see the sweepers though, because they were too far from where I was.

Jason

------------------
FocusMods.com
89 Mirage Turbo
95 Talon TSi AWD/13.3@99mph/(forsale)
Focus ZX3 (looking for one)

**ZXmurph** · 04-11-2001, 01:04 AM

You all really want to join my VW torsion beam tri-podding hell?

Say it ain't so!!!!!! I thought I was EVOLVING with this new car!

oh well ....some things never change I guess..

------------------
Hows about more go, less show.......
2001 pitch black ZX3 "special order"- no power- Premium Grp + Advance-Trac
1984 VW GTI 2.0 16v "Street Mod" Auto-Xer 1900lbs/155hp- (refereed and certified C.A.R.B. swap)
1979 VW RABBIT Diesel "S.U.V." 45mpg Surfmobile- wipe your feet after getting OUT-(C.A.R.B.'s evil smoking nemesis)

**P-51** · 04-11-2001, 10:58 AM

No, I don't *want* to tripod. Just with a stock focus it's the only way to go fast.

I think once it's lowered an inch with stiffer springs and shocks the tripoding will be gone.

**ZXmurph** · 04-11-2001, 08:08 PM

Oh sure first tease me- then abandon me!

I see how you are!!!

j/k..I am just looking forward to racing a car that has 4-wheels on the ground (most of the time) for a change!!!!!!

------------------
Hows about more go, less show.......
2001 pitch black ZX3 "special order"- no power- Premium Grp + Advance-Trac
1984 VW GTI 2.0 16v "Street Mod" Auto-Xer 1900lbs/155hp- (refereed and certified C.A.R.B. swap)
1979 VW RABBIT Diesel "S.U.V." 45mpg Surfmobile- wipe your feet after getting OUT-(C.A.R.B.'s evil smoking nemesis)

**teamDFL** · 04-11-2001, 08:44 PM

The intersting thing is how it is difficult to detect when the car is doing the VW salute(aka tripod). It still feels stable. Maybe it is because the only time I have ever been on three wheels with the BMW is under power in a sharp turn when you can pick up the inside front a touch and hover over the berms. Very different than under braking during turn in.

So, in the opinion of those far more knowledgable in things FWD, will a rear sway bar increase the tripod effect? I don't think that would be detrimental to handling, but is their another drawback?

Also, the car is going to get an alignment. Any suggestions? Nothing that will chew tires up in a thousand miles please.

Rich
teamDFL...just rAn it

**Chris F** · 04-11-2001, 10:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by P-51:
No, I don't *want* to tripod. Just with a stock focus it's the only way to go fast.

I think once it's lowered an inch with stiffer springs and shocks the tripoding will be gone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I get a wheel of the ground in my car im going to be very very scared...

11 days till the first auto-x event locally. Just sent in my cheque for the whole season today.

------------------
Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

**ZXmurph** · 04-12-2001, 02:17 AM

yeah DFL- the VW "salute" is a combo of inherent desparate front to rear roll stiffness (the rear torsion beam axle "twists" to provide some roll control on its own-a swaybar naturally adds further to this resistance) combined with a lack of rear suspension "droop travel"---

since the Focus has an actual independent rear that wasn't designed in the stone age by German dwarfs- adding roll stiffness by a bar in the rear wont nearly increase the tendency to tri-pod as much. But anything that increases, again, a big enough disparity between front and rear roll stiffness will increase the likelihood of FWD rear inside lift under throttle lift or braking. Its the result of bar providing the extra wheel rate to reduce roll and speed up weight tranfer- at the expense of wheel independence- the same bar that is resisting compressing forces on one side by twisting is also trying to transfer an untwisting upward force to the other (inside) wheel.

This is the same action at work when that M3 inside wheel lifts at the exit under power.

In VW circles the Big bars vs small or no bars with big spring rates is beaten to death- and has most to do with personal preference or the SOLO vs. track thing.

The key is always balance for you and the car 's design- as I have advised in the past in a modern independent set-up I would say bars a good for tuning but not as a replacement for properly selected spring rates- mostly because bigger and bigger bars further reduce individual wheel control - that INDEPENDENT part we are usually proud of. remember stock rides typically have bars more for removing the "sensation" of roll without having to resort to spring rates that would degrade cabin comfort on the straight and narrow.
Meanwhile my sceaming stone-age Rabbit is a pretty aggressive SOLO set-up, - 450lb front springs w/no or a small sway bar and 300lb rears with a 700lb torsion bar bolted to the rear torsion beam ( keep in mind this is a barely 1900lb car)- it is set up to either tuck in hard under braking (w/ the front bar on) or rotate like Taz on crack (w/o the front)- interestingly as VW springs rates climb the "tripod" stays but gets lower and lower-- while you are going faster and faster-- seems our fastest Foci are going to be tuned to be doing the "salute" as little as possible.

as far as alignment since the Focus has no factory camber adjustment I would just pop the toe out 1/16 a side for maybe a little quicker turn-in and ironically a little less tire shoulder torture for events without too much wear on the street.
I think it was CasperSE that reported that a 1.5" drop got the front hovering around -1.0 to -1.8 or so which would be a good dual purpose camber number but I think we should make P-51 build awesome plates so we can move it around in a snap.

I guess that was a hell of alot more than my .02 but I just finished taxes and thought I was going to have a stroke.......thanks and good night.......

------------------
Hows about more go, less show.......
2001 pitch black ZX3 "special order"- no power- Premium Grp + Advance-Trac
1984 VW GTI 2.0 16v "Street Mod" Auto-Xer 1900lbs/155hp- (refereed and certified C.A.R.B. swap)
1979 VW RABBIT Diesel "S.U.V." 45mpg Surfmobile- wipe your feet after getting OUT-(C.A.R.B.'s evil smoking nemesis)

[This message has been edited by ZXmurph (edited 04-12-2001).]

**Tony D** · 04-12-2001, 10:16 AM

Way to go Rich! I'm glad you like the AFX UDP.

In the FWD chassis tuning arena, I have had good luck with FWD cars by increasing the rear bar size. My old ITA Dodge Shelby really liked the large rear bar with no front bar. This would be a little hairy for the street, but it made the car rotate in the corners.

A no cost trick to try on your Focus at the next auto-x would be to disconnect the front sway bar links. Don't forget to wire up the bar to keep it from hitting the ground and wire the links so they do not swing in the way of other components. See if that makes the car rotate better. In the old showroom stock days, FWD racers would try many tricks like this to disable the front bar to tune the handling more to their liking. If this suits you, then a larger rear bar such as the Progress may be just the ticket. Hope this helps.

Tony D

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www.newedgeperformance.com
Ford Focus Specialist and proud sponsor of the Think Zinc Project Car.

**Chris F** · 04-12-2001, 01:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by P-51:
[b]
I drove Chris F's car, and it doesn't do it at all.[b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know.

Last summer, before I put my suspension on I had the car on 3 wheels on a few occasions with just my summer tires... Typically it would happen when I overcooked a sharper (usually 45-60 degree) turn at higher speed (50mph-70mph).
Not a terribly fun sensation.... Maybe I just wasnt used to it, probably could work it to my advantage somehow on a track.

I imagine with sticker rubber it would be alot easier to generate the cornering loads to do it.

However now that I have a solid suspension the cornering loads required to put one of the rears off the ground are going to be ALOT higher which means that if it ever happens (especially on ZR tires) ive probably gotten myself into a very serious situation indeed.

------------------
Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

**P-51** · 04-12-2001, 03:25 PM

I would agree!

**P-51** · 04-13-2001, 12:43 AM

I don't think the Focus is as bad as a VW. I found my Rabbit did it everytime you turn hard. On the Focus, it only does it if you are turning and braking.

I think it won't lift in roll alone. You also need the car to pitch forward under braking and turn at the same time.

With good springs, I'm sure it will be eliminated.

I drove Chris F's car, and it doesn't do it at all.

Chris, 3 wheeling is nothing to be worried about. It is not unstable or dangerous. All that is happening is that the rear suspension does not have enough downward travel to let the rear wheel touch the ground. The car rolls, like normal, and the rear suspension is "topped out" (opposite of bottomed out).

I've seen a Rabbit on two wheels, now that's scary!

**Penguini66** · 06-07-2005, 02:01 PM

BUMP....

What a blast from the past here. I was wondering how old of a post I could find in here. Funny to see Rich, Rob, Chris and Murph talking about some of their early auto-x experiences (edit: in their Focus).

WOW a focus on 3 wheels! NO WAY!

And hell, FOK must have still been in elementary skool.

04-06-2001, 06:51 PM	#1
teamDFL Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Apex, NC, USA Posts: 4,629	First autocross... ...in my Focus is Sunday (thanks Jason). So what tire pressures should I run? I haven't used street tires in about 7 years and have no idea. The car is stock, and has 205-50/16 Sumitomo HTRZII's. Rich teamDFL...pylon pirate

04-06-2001, 07:34 PM	#2
FordEurope.net Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Meeuwen, Limburg, Belgium Posts: 3,410	Re: First autocross... Good luck, have someone take pictures! ------------------ Dave Mathijs ~ 2000 Ford Focus 1.8TDdi webmaster FordEurope.net "If you are going through hell, keep going."

04-06-2001, 11:46 PM	#3
ZXmurph Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: where to surf in Rochester NY?? Posts: 3,905	Re: First autocross... Go DFL!! I have an event on Sunday- but with <500miles on the ZX3 it's still screamin' GTI time. Pressure? Hell - enough so you don't beat the living @#$% out of them- maybe 40 or so and "tune" from there. Have fun in slo-mo, understeering hell compared to your A-mod life. You have been "left footin" that brake recently haven't you? I'll get it out there soon- on street rubber too. Just RUn iT! ------------------ Hows about more go, less show....... 2001 pitch black ZX3 "special order"- no power- Premium Grp + Advance-Trac 1984 VW GTI 2.0 16v "Street Mod" Auto-Xer 1900lbs/155hp- (refereed and certified C.A.R.B. swap) 1979 VW RABBIT Diesel "S.U.V." 45mpg Surfmobile- wipe your feet after getting OUT-(C.A.R.B.'s evil smoking nemesis)

04-07-2001, 08:57 PM	#4
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15,015	Re: First autocross... Rich, start at 45-45 and play with the rear pressure from there. You'll probably need to keep the front at 45.

04-08-2001, 02:25 AM	#5
focusownerskid Administrator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroe, MI Posts: 15,645	Re: First autocross... Good Luck Rich...And Above All Have Fun!!!!!!!! drew fok

04-08-2001, 04:07 AM	#6
greenkonafocus Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 77	Re: First autocross... I run 45-48 front and 42-44 in the rear on my 16" Firestones. Hope it helps. BTW, You'll be shocked how good it does. Mine kicked the crap out of my old RX-7. I even have fun beating up on the occasional vette and camaro or fireturd. HEHE... Have fun and let us know how it goes. ------------------ "Only little boys wear bowties."

04-09-2001, 02:25 AM	#7
Y2K ZX3 I am THE Focaljet MOM! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Monroe,MI >>>Linda aka mom Posts: 5,288	Re: First autocross... Rich.... How did the autocross go? I'm sure you had a blast... PS....the big day is rapidly approaching...the best of luck to you both... xo mom

04-09-2001, 03:20 AM	#8
Ducman69 HUGE member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: van by the river Posts: 18,896	Re: First autocross... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>PS....the big day is rapidly approaching...the best of luck to you both<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Your not going to marry your car are you? The exhaust isn't comfortable, or so I've been told. So, tell us how it went (with lots of illustrations of course)!

04-09-2001, 09:36 AM	#9
Y2K ZX3 I am THE Focaljet MOM! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Monroe,MI >>>Linda aka mom Posts: 5,288	Re: First autocross... Hehehe.....Ducman69 your funny...no, Rich's big day will be when his wife has their baby in the next couple of weeks mom

04-09-2001, 10:07 AM	#10
jmauld Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 71	Re: First autocross... Rich did awesome with the focus! He had that car bouncing around on three wheels for most of the course! He also came in a very close 2nd place against an extremely good driver in very well prepped Sentra SE-R. And Rich's Focus is very close to stock!!! For the tire pressure. Get some shoe polish and put on the tires. That way you can see how far the tires are rolling over. You only want them to roll over to the edge of the tread, so put the appropriate amount of pressure in the tires for that. Just be sure to get some polish or chalk that will wash off easily! Jason ------------------ FocusMods.com 89 Mirage Turbo 95 Talon TSi AWD/13.3@99mph/(forsale) Focus ZX3 (looking for one)

04-09-2001, 10:50 AM	#11
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15,015	Re: First autocross... I just had my first event of the season too. None of the regulars (Mike, Luc) showed up because it was a Corvette Club event, but it was good this time!!! The course was pretty fun. They set up one chicane that the Foci could just squeeze right through without turning. FTD was a mid 35, and I turned a 39.0 so I'd say that was pretty good for a Focus with only RA1's, and a rear swaybar. Oh yeah, and some weight reduction... Can't wait to get shocks now!!! This season is gonna be awesome! With the rear Eibach bar installed, but not the front, the handling was PERFECT! Absolutely spot on! The only time you got understeer is if you go in way too hot. I have to wait for the results, but I beat a lot of Vettes and other cool cars.

04-09-2001, 08:33 PM	#12
teamDFL Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Apex, NC, USA Posts: 4,629	Re: First autocross... Yes, the event was a lot of fun. www.thscc.com should have all the results soon, so you can see that Jason is flatering me with undeserved praise. He spanked me by quite a bit, as did most others. I ran 42 psi front and 36 psi rear. I got quite a bit of front roll over and should have gone higher. However, since we only had four runs and I was in a new car, I felt that predicatability was more important so didn't change them. The AFX UDP (thanks a bunch Tony D @ New Edge) that I installed the day before makes a difference you can feel. Almost like turning off the A/C although it was never on. Definitely recomend it. I had never driven a front drive car in an autocross very hard, as they always belonged to someone else. Seeing as how this was my first time, the learning curve was steep. The only way I could get the car to do anything resembling turn in was to left foot brake like crazy. Glad of the ABS as am I sure it saved a couple of flat spots when I got into the dusty parts. Overall the car plows like a John Deere in sweepers, but is still amazingly fun to drive. Oversteer is so slow and progressive that if you actually spin one of these cars, I can honestly say, never buy a rear driver. I did not find the car to be as horrendously underdamped as many reported. Sure, stiffer would be better, but on street tires, it is not a huge deal. I now know I will not replace them until they are shot, as for my purposes they are adequate. This car won't get race tires. So what is the best way to get the mid corner push out? Rear sway bar? Alignment? Rich teamDFL...front drive and rear drive

04-10-2001, 11:46 AM	#13
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15,015	Re: First autocross... I had great results with my rear only Eibach bar. The was perfectly balanced, phenomenal. Of course, your milage may vary. We seem to be driving very different cars. Mine never plowed in sweepers, and it does roll tons... Did you get the rear wheel up? If not, you probably just weren't pushing enough to feel the roll. I was tri-poding it around the track all day!

04-10-2001, 02:11 PM	#14
jmauld Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 71	Re: First autocross... Oh, come on Rich, I only ran a faster time because I was driving a car with stickies, 450lb front springs, 350lb rear springs, and around 180hp. I should've been more than 2 seconds faster, or at least the car could've been with a decent driver. The people that normally watch me drive said I was driving like a wuss... I need to get more acquanted to my new autocrosser. :-) I also need a rear swaybar. :-) I think that I'm going to order that ADDCO bar in the next week or so. From my point of view, I think Rich had one of the rear wheels off the ground around nearly every corner. (At least the ones that I could see). I couldn't see the sweepers though, because they were too far from where I was. Jason ------------------ FocusMods.com 89 Mirage Turbo 95 Talon TSi AWD/13.3@99mph/(forsale) Focus ZX3 (looking for one)

04-11-2001, 01:04 AM	#15
ZXmurph Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: where to surf in Rochester NY?? Posts: 3,905	Re: First autocross... You all really want to join my VW torsion beam tri-podding hell? Say it ain't so!!!!!! I thought I was EVOLVING with this new car! oh well ....some things never change I guess.. ------------------ Hows about more go, less show....... 2001 pitch black ZX3 "special order"- no power- Premium Grp + Advance-Trac 1984 VW GTI 2.0 16v "Street Mod" Auto-Xer 1900lbs/155hp- (refereed and certified C.A.R.B. swap) 1979 VW RABBIT Diesel "S.U.V." 45mpg Surfmobile- wipe your feet after getting OUT-(C.A.R.B.'s evil smoking nemesis)

04-11-2001, 10:58 AM	#16
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15,015	Re: First autocross... No, I don't want to tripod. Just with a stock focus it's the only way to go fast. I think once it's lowered an inch with stiffer springs and shocks the tripoding will be gone.

04-11-2001, 08:08 PM	#17
ZXmurph Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: where to surf in Rochester NY?? Posts: 3,905	Re: First autocross... Oh sure first tease me- then abandon me! I see how you are!!! j/k..I am just looking forward to racing a car that has 4-wheels on the ground (most of the time) for a change!!!!!! ------------------ Hows about more go, less show....... 2001 pitch black ZX3 "special order"- no power- Premium Grp + Advance-Trac 1984 VW GTI 2.0 16v "Street Mod" Auto-Xer 1900lbs/155hp- (refereed and certified C.A.R.B. swap) 1979 VW RABBIT Diesel "S.U.V." 45mpg Surfmobile- wipe your feet after getting OUT-(C.A.R.B.'s evil smoking nemesis)

04-11-2001, 08:44 PM	#18
teamDFL Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Apex, NC, USA Posts: 4,629	Re: First autocross... The intersting thing is how it is difficult to detect when the car is doing the VW salute(aka tripod). It still feels stable. Maybe it is because the only time I have ever been on three wheels with the BMW is under power in a sharp turn when you can pick up the inside front a touch and hover over the berms. Very different than under braking during turn in. So, in the opinion of those far more knowledgable in things FWD, will a rear sway bar increase the tripod effect? I don't think that would be detrimental to handling, but is their another drawback? Also, the car is going to get an alignment. Any suggestions? Nothing that will chew tires up in a thousand miles please. Rich teamDFL...just rAn it

04-11-2001, 10:43 PM	#19
Chris F Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,957	Re: First autocross... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by P-51: No, I don't want to tripod. Just with a stock focus it's the only way to go fast. I think once it's lowered an inch with stiffer springs and shocks the tripoding will be gone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If I get a wheel of the ground in my car im going to be very very scared... 11 days till the first auto-x event locally. Just sent in my cheque for the whole season today. ------------------ Chris Feist Black 00' ZX3 5spd Mods Dyno Chart

04-12-2001, 02:17 AM	#20
ZXmurph Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: where to surf in Rochester NY?? Posts: 3,905	Re: First autocross... yeah DFL- the VW "salute" is a combo of inherent desparate front to rear roll stiffness (the rear torsion beam axle "twists" to provide some roll control on its own-a swaybar naturally adds further to this resistance) combined with a lack of rear suspension "droop travel"--- since the Focus has an actual independent rear that wasn't designed in the stone age by German dwarfs- adding roll stiffness by a bar in the rear wont nearly increase the tendency to tri-pod as much. But anything that increases, again, a big enough disparity between front and rear roll stiffness will increase the likelihood of FWD rear inside lift under throttle lift or braking. Its the result of bar providing the extra wheel rate to reduce roll and speed up weight tranfer- at the expense of wheel independence- the same bar that is resisting compressing forces on one side by twisting is also trying to transfer an untwisting upward force to the other (inside) wheel. This is the same action at work when that M3 inside wheel lifts at the exit under power. In VW circles the Big bars vs small or no bars with big spring rates is beaten to death- and has most to do with personal preference or the SOLO vs. track thing. The key is always balance for you and the car 's design- as I have advised in the past in a modern independent set-up I would say bars a good for tuning but not as a replacement for properly selected spring rates- mostly because bigger and bigger bars further reduce individual wheel control - that INDEPENDENT part we are usually proud of. remember stock rides typically have bars more for removing the "sensation" of roll without having to resort to spring rates that would degrade cabin comfort on the straight and narrow. Meanwhile my sceaming stone-age Rabbit is a pretty aggressive SOLO set-up, - 450lb front springs w/no or a small sway bar and 300lb rears with a 700lb torsion bar bolted to the rear torsion beam ( keep in mind this is a barely 1900lb car)- it is set up to either tuck in hard under braking (w/ the front bar on) or rotate like Taz on crack (w/o the front)- interestingly as VW springs rates climb the "tripod" stays but gets lower and lower-- while you are going faster and faster-- seems our fastest Foci are going to be tuned to be doing the "salute" as little as possible. as far as alignment since the Focus has no factory camber adjustment I would just pop the toe out 1/16 a side for maybe a little quicker turn-in and ironically a little less tire shoulder torture for events without too much wear on the street. I think it was CasperSE that reported that a 1.5" drop got the front hovering around -1.0 to -1.8 or so which would be a good dual purpose camber number but I think we should make P-51 build awesome plates so we can move it around in a snap. I guess that was a hell of alot more than my .02 but I just finished taxes and thought I was going to have a stroke.......thanks and good night....... ------------------ Hows about more go, less show....... 2001 pitch black ZX3 "special order"- no power- Premium Grp + Advance-Trac 1984 VW GTI 2.0 16v "Street Mod" Auto-Xer 1900lbs/155hp- (refereed and certified C.A.R.B. swap) 1979 VW RABBIT Diesel "S.U.V." 45mpg Surfmobile- wipe your feet after getting OUT-(C.A.R.B.'s evil smoking nemesis) [This message has been edited by ZXmurph (edited 04-12-2001).]

04-12-2001, 10:16 AM	#21
Tony D Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Cresaptown, Md Posts: 3,252	Re: First autocross... Way to go Rich! I'm glad you like the AFX UDP. In the FWD chassis tuning arena, I have had good luck with FWD cars by increasing the rear bar size. My old ITA Dodge Shelby really liked the large rear bar with no front bar. This would be a little hairy for the street, but it made the car rotate in the corners. A no cost trick to try on your Focus at the next auto-x would be to disconnect the front sway bar links. Don't forget to wire up the bar to keep it from hitting the ground and wire the links so they do not swing in the way of other components. See if that makes the car rotate better. In the old showroom stock days, FWD racers would try many tricks like this to disable the front bar to tune the handling more to their liking. If this suits you, then a larger rear bar such as the Progress may be just the ticket. Hope this helps. Tony D ------------------ www.newedgeperformance.com Ford Focus Specialist and proud sponsor of the Think Zinc Project Car.

04-12-2001, 01:28 PM	#22
Chris F Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,957	Re: First autocross... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by P-51: [b] I drove Chris F's car, and it doesn't do it at all.[b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know. Last summer, before I put my suspension on I had the car on 3 wheels on a few occasions with just my summer tires... Typically it would happen when I overcooked a sharper (usually 45-60 degree) turn at higher speed (50mph-70mph). Not a terribly fun sensation.... Maybe I just wasnt used to it, probably could work it to my advantage somehow on a track. I imagine with sticker rubber it would be alot easier to generate the cornering loads to do it. However now that I have a solid suspension the cornering loads required to put one of the rears off the ground are going to be ALOT higher which means that if it ever happens (especially on ZR tires) ive probably gotten myself into a very serious situation indeed. ------------------ Chris Feist Black 00' ZX3 5spd Mods Dyno Chart

04-12-2001, 03:25 PM	#23
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15,015	Re: First autocross... I would agree!

04-13-2001, 12:43 AM	#24
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15,015	Re: First autocross... I don't think the Focus is as bad as a VW. I found my Rabbit did it everytime you turn hard. On the Focus, it only does it if you are turning and braking. I think it won't lift in roll alone. You also need the car to pitch forward under braking and turn at the same time. With good springs, I'm sure it will be eliminated. I drove Chris F's car, and it doesn't do it at all. Chris, 3 wheeling is nothing to be worried about. It is not unstable or dangerous. All that is happening is that the rear suspension does not have enough downward travel to let the rear wheel touch the ground. The car rolls, like normal, and the rear suspension is "topped out" (opposite of bottomed out). I've seen a Rabbit on two wheels, now that's scary!

06-07-2005, 02:01 PM	#25
Penguini66 [FJ] Specialist Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Home Posts: 7,989	Re: First autocross... BUMP.... What a blast from the past here. I was wondering how old of a post I could find in here. Funny to see Rich, Rob, Chris and Murph talking about some of their early auto-x experiences (edit: in their Focus). WOW a focus on 3 wheels! NO WAY! And hell, FOK must have still been in elementary skool.