ATX rebuilds

[G-forces]

Originally Posted by focituner2

so where can i get this manual? do i call a dealership or is there a special place to order this?

Sorry for not paying attention, but I got one last week for $12.97 (plus shipping) off of ebay. It was called "Ford 4F27E Factory Transmission Shop Manual", but I think any search using 4F27E will get you to a page with several of them.

[G-forces]

Originally Posted by RallyRacer

There is just too much to go through! I will just stick to answering the specific questions from now on. Get the reference manual and study it, you will have far fewer questions.

I have a specific question.
But first... thank you for directing me to the things I need to make this work. I've got the tools and the manuals, and some parts (I'll get the rest of the parts when time and need require it).

I'm wondering about the select fit retaining rings and the manual's description of how to determine the right size. When the book says to lift the clutch plates slightly to determine the size of the space you will be filling with one of the retaining rings, how do you know when to stop lifting ( )? Is this one of those things that's obvious once you do it, or do I need to be aware of (experienced about) something to get it right?

Thanks again!

[amc49]

Bear in mind that the snap ring GROOVE will be too wide for the chosen snap ring. That's so that the overall height of the clutch plates together form the bottom of limit for the snap ring. Does that make sense? In other words, snap ring can go no deeper into cylinder because clutch pack holds it up because it's in the way. It will not hit bottom of snap ring groove. Top of limit will be the OUTSIDE of snap ring groove, or side closest to open end of cylinder. When you're checking for clearance then, you must at least lift up enough to make sure that your chosen snap ring contacts that outer side of groove, since in operation, the piston under all clutches will push them up in an attempt to push them out of cylinder, except the snap ring stops that. In operation clutches will push snap ring out until it hits end of groove then it holds everything in that spot. To answer question then, lift up enough to make snap ring contact outside of groove, but not enough to warp snap ring out of 'flat'. I usually use a couple of cheap sets of feeler gauges taken apart so that I can slide individual pieces in to push up snap ring while checking clearance. I steadily increase the thickness until one finally gets tight enough so that it starts dragging going in. Check that one you've decided is 'it' in like several locations all around. You have to kinda average clearance out, since it will not be exactly the same all the way around. I like to use 4 feeler gauges in all 4 corners to make it real obvious how tight it is. Here's another one for you. Depending on whose parts you buy, sometimes they allow for setting that clutch pack clearance by using slightly different width steels or even fiber discs. Some kits do that, and some rely on different thickness snap rings. There's no difference, one could even use a combo of the 2 methods to get clearance. The clearance doesn't care how it got there, only that it's right. I have reused say one old steel that was flat, not burned because it was slightly worn and made my number come up right. I NEVER reuse frictions though. Trans will work better and last longer if you shoot to minimum side of the clearance. That shortens shift time slightly (always a good thing) and allows trans to wear further before it hits the too loose spot past the high end clearance number. Whatever, do NOT go below the magic minimum more than .005" or you will burn clutch pack. I try to not ever go below that number. Take that number and divide by total number of frictions/steels and you get the individual clearance for each disc, you gotta be able to get oil in there to avoid burning it. While thinking all this, remember that frictions will lose a small amount of thickness on initial run in as they defuzz on first use. All this is the easy part, just wait till if you have to reset case preload on the main output gears. That's fun.

[G-forces]

^Amc49, thanks for the info. Are you saying the clutch pack needs to be JUST SNUG, or JUST CONTACTING the snap ring when the snap ring is against the outside of the grove? And are you saying the reason for the "lifting" operation is to find the average of high and low around the ring?

I read the bits about the gear preload measurements... I'm either going to have to buy a nice expensive depth gauge, or I might take the case halves to a trans shop for that part. The last might be my best bet, because then I can ask some review questions.

[amc49]

Feeler gauge should just go in with a little bit of drag. If tight going in, too tight, but you don't want it to just slip in with no resistance at all. Similar to setting valve clearances on solids. You measure in more than one spot to get an average since it will vary a bit all around. In short, yes to the description you gave. The reason for the lifting is to make sure you have snap ring as high as it will go in groove.

[G-forces]

Originally Posted by amc49

The reason for the lifting is to make sure you have snap ring as high as it will go in groove.

That's the part that got me. I didn't think they were talking about lifting the SNAP RING, I thought they were talking about lifting the top clutch disk AGAINST the snap ring... No place to measure that way. Now that you said that, I get the lifting idea. Thanks.

[amc49]

I should tell you that I have NOT done a 4F27E yet, however I have done several others and that's what works. Here's the point. It doesn't matter where you measure the clearance as long as you are sure that the measuring point is where you will be able to get all the slack in the clutch stack to one side so that an accurate measure can be made. Usually the snap ring is wide enough so that you can do it between snap ring and top clutch plate. Sometimes though, trans design may prevent that. Maybe snap ring VERY narrow, or retention area is made in such a way that it won't work that way. Earlier CD4E for instance has to be measured somewhat differently in the low/reverse clutch because of the way it's built. Looking at my Focus trans manual though, it appears that I could measure in the normal fashion mentioned previously, as the snap ring shown appears to be normal width.

[Z63R]

amc49, stop posting huge blocks of text.

Double space now and then so we can breathe. This is my second request.

[amc49]

That was HUGE???

Less than 1/3 size of other one.

SECOND request, oh, now I've gone and done it.

Beginning to sound like threat now...................

"So we can breathe" ????

I hope you don't take it personal if I have a little chuckle over that one. Sorry about the ADD there boys. I was wasting too much time here anyway. Before I go, I was going to tell how to rebuild old belt tensioners for as little as $3 that last as long as the Ford part. How about entire automatic trans assembly that will last forever without buying any of the "special tools required". My tools to measure all including the cases and gearshaft preload cost maybe $10 bucks. I've lined up 150 mph race car front ends with stout string and a 6 inch level, can also do all 4 wheels. Have NEVER paid anyone to line up a front end on my cars, much less any thing else. I have done ALL my own maintenance and major rebuild including manual and automatic transmissions with 100 % good results, they all lasted years. I just repaired my Focus wagon that was in accident. $5000+ damage estimate, it cost me $600 including windshield to do it. Car runs as before accident, perfect. I have built pro stock engines (Camaro) that were 720+ cu.in., 3 stage nitrous, that ran over 200 mph 1/4 mile. Held world record fastest prostock in the world for awhile. Dynoed 1200 hp. until nitrous hit, then bottomed dyno which only went to 1500. American Motors AMX in mid '70s, 395 inch motors that would outpull most 454 big block Chevrolet in high gear, 9.80s @ 140 mph. Single 4 bbl. full weight street AMX 401 with only 8.4/1 compression that ran 11.80s 1/4, ran 10.70s @ 130 with only a cam change. All carbed, no FI, no puff, pro motor only one with N2O. There's more but I have to go, I gotta rebuild my hand grinder so I can port some heads. Forgot to mention that, do all my own head porting. Tonight it's an ultrarare set of Boss 302 heads, car (305 inch, '70 Boss Mustang) runs high 10s 1/4, not fast enough. I may not understand torque, but like I said, my ideas work just fine in my world. Sorry about the last big block of text, I couldn't help myself. It was a stupid rule anyway. Later gentlemen. Please remove my ID and pass, all personal information from your server(s).

[Z63R]

That was HUGE???

Less than 1/3 size of other one.

SECOND request, oh, now I've gone and done it.

Beginning to sound like threat now...................

"So we can breathe" ????

Why the spite?

Stop posting huge blocks of text, as in all of your recent posts. # 28 in this thread especially. Break them up. It's simple.

I mentioned "second request" as you seem to have missed the other reminder in another thread, and one in which another user commented about your posts.

It was a stupid rule anyway. Later gentlemen. Please remove my ID and pass, all personal information from your server(s).

Grow up.

[focusforlife]

What does it hurt to put big blocks of text? I think u just took a wealth of knowledge from a lot of us inexperienced builders.

[G-forces]

I need an expert with ATX. I've reached the point where I need to un-stake the final drive input gear bearing retainer nut ring.

Does anyone know what tool is preferred for doing this?

My needle nose pliers are too thick, I can't get the right angle with any of my punches, and I'm afraid my wood chisels are going to be too brittle.

[RallyRacer]

Just use what you have to get the indent out. If you destroy the nut, just get another one from Steve.
I would try a chisel small enough, or a flat head screw driver that has a thin enough tip.

[G-forces]

Thanks, I was trying to be too careful of the nut I guess. I'll be replacing several pieces as it is, one more nut's no big deal, lol.

[RallyRacer]

Originally Posted by G-forces

Thanks, I was trying to be too careful of the nut I guess. I'll be replacing several pieces as it is, one more nut's no big deal, lol.

That's what happened to me on my last rebuild. Alot of "hard parts" had to be replaced and really added up!
Good luck, and be patient.

[G-forces]

After I messed up the tip of my only screwdriver that would fit I decided to take the Dremel to it. Careful application thinned the sides if the ring until I could use a small wood chisel to wedge it away. Thanks for reminding me of the disposable-ness of the hardware, I have to clean everything real well anyway and I'm getting a new retainer.

[G-forces]

RallyRacer...

Back again. I've found an issue I'm not happy with and not sure how to work around. When I measured the anchor bolt length needed, the length turns out to be almost 2mm longer than the longest (39mm) select fit bolt stocked by Ford. My "band gauge" bolt shows that I need 40.7mm @ 5 Nm measuring/operating pressure.

Have you ever run into that? (It's an Alto Redline band.) Do you think the "gauge" bolt is durable enough if I where to simply tighten the locking nut against the case at the called for ft lbs? What would you do?

Thanks...

[RallyRacer]

I have not run into that problem. My measurements had me using the second shortest strut bolt and it worked out for me. I used the Alto red band also.
After tightening the band gauge bolt tool to 5Nm are you backing the bolt out the 3-1/2 turns?- then locking the nut down to compare lengths? Hold that bolt when tightening the nut.
As far as I know the 39mm is the longest bolt.

[G-forces]

Ah ha! Or is that "doe!" I have no idea how I missed the print that says "back out the gauge three-and-a-half turns". I guess I just set the tool, then pulled it and measured it, then freaked out before reading anything more.

All's well, thanks again for the guidance. This is almost done, just need the valve body from Lentech (the price just keeps going up on that, it's like they don't know we're in a depression ).

[G-forces]

Finally ready to install (lift time set-up for next weekend).

I know I'll have to add fluid gradually (2 qts at a time), but is there any priming I should do (or should have done already, during disassembled stage, beside just coating everything) to get fluid going in the "dry" parts?

[RallyRacer]

When filing the transmission from dry what I've done is pour four quarts into the pan (from the dipstick tube) and let it set for a couple of hours. Then the fluid can fill the valve body passages, etc. This has always worked for me, I don't think there is a priming procedure. Just let the engine idle to pump that fluid around, don't put it into gear right away. Check and fill in small increments (1pint, maybe 1qt max increments).

[G-forces]

Once again, thanks allot. That's what I'll do.

Now that it's all together and just waiting, I'm getting pretty impatient for Saturday to get here.

[G-forces]

It's finally in and works REALLY well!!! (I got bumped off the lift last week, so finally got it started yesterday afternoon.) The clutch upgrades and Lentech valve body are very noticeable... it feels like it will handle allot more power with ease. (When ever I have to change the starter, I am definitely going to remove the IM, those top bolts are PITAs to reach, lol.)

Rally... One thing is not right, though. The shift cable is too long and I don't know if I can adjust it at the console shift lever or if I have to (or even can) take that up at the bracket. Right now it's very tight in Park and slips slightly in "D", so I have to hold the lever back almost half way to "2" for it to be in the right place inside the trans. Does the bracket have enough wollow in the bolt holes to make up that length? Can I adjust the cable length inside the car? If there is a choice, which way is easier? Thanks again!


edit: Okay, nevermind the noob question... I ordered some parts from Steve and found out there is no inside adjustment. Then I stopped being lazy and just bent the bracket until it was right. Everything is tight and right!

Rally... Steve says your the man, and I agree. Thank you for walking me through my first ATX build! The tranny is now ready for the HP I want to put through it. All is good!

[RallyRacer]

Cool!
Congratulations on a successful transmission rebuild. We have to get together sometime. I am now in the works of converting to a manual, have all the parts, now just need to get to work on it. I will still be on the lookout for automatic owners who need advice.

The shift cable can be adjusted under hood, by loosening the lock collar, about six inches up from the cable ball end (where it attaches to the trans). You need a really tight grip to loosen it (about a quarter turn CCW) but once it is loose you can slide the cable up and down to make necessary adjustment.

[G-forces]

Thanks. I have relatives in Saint Cloud, so whenever I get up there I'll give you a shout, or just let me know if you know there's something going on between here and there sometime, we could meet up.

Good luck with the manual swap, I didn't want to go that route because I hate the thought of changing the wire harness and ECM (even though I would have been more familiar and comfortable with the driving part of it all).

Do you mean the "lock" and "unlock" function of the collar? I thought that would let the sheath loose to pull the cable free of the collar, I guess I misunderstood what it does. If there is a "next time" with a Focus ATX swap, I'll know what to do. Thanks again.