ATX rebuilds

[EnixStorm]

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/al...ower_packs.htm

Alright scroll down to 4f27e...

Does the 1st one only give the friction linings? the second one gives the clutches AND the steel bands in between right? and is the band the piece in the back around the reverse clutch drum? I'd rather find some of this info out before I sound like a retard on the phone lol.

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

that looks like a hell of an overhaul kit for the price... the one for 330 looks to include everything... but not sure about clutches... i think it does....

your correct about the band i believe...

and that direct drum upgrade is what lentech does to their 500whp monster trannies....

looks like that might be the kit for me when i get my tranny here for the build

-AcId-

[scottsf0cus]

330 for that rebuild looks a whole lot better than the 2200+ for a new lentech! Though no telling how much labor would be...

[EnixStorm]

free! DIY that's what I plan on doing, noway will I pay over 4 grand for a lentech

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

with it built right and a decent tq converter... and aftermarket cooler... it should hold up to 300+whp pretty easily imo...

good luck.. and keep us updated

-AcId-

[RallyRacer]

Originally Posted by EnixStorm

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/al...ower_packs.htm

Alright scroll down to 4f27e...

Does the 1st one only give the friction linings? the second one gives the clutches AND the steel bands in between right? and is the band the piece in the back around the reverse clutch drum? I'd rather find some of this info out before I sound like a retard on the phone lol.

I can tell you don't know what you are talking about yet- this is not an insult- I started out the same way. Yes, thats the band- the ONLY band is the one that grips the reverse clutch drum; those other "bands" are called separator plates or "steels".
Don't buy from transmissioncenter. Make your own kit.
That first kit is just the direct clutch Powerpack offered by Alto- this only addresses the direct clutch and is not a rebuild kit. The Powerpack gives you thiner steel separator plates so you can run 5 friction and steels indstead of three; thereby increasing the HP capacity. This kit is a must when rebuilding for higher HP.
The second kit doesn't even include the ruber bonded pistons- so stay away from that, but seems to have everthing else.
Here are all the parts I SUGGEST you buy to replaced all the wear parts in the transmission:
1. Motorcraft part# MTKV-K4600-B - this kit includes all new pistoms, o-rings, gaskets, even the frictions and the steels, everything but the 2-4 band; or MTK-46900-B (cheaper, but not sure if that kit has the bonded pistons). You will not use the frictions and steels from the master kit if you are also buying the upgraded Alto clutches.
Now for the frictions and steels, I sugest:
2. Alto part# 133750AHPPWR - this includes all Red Eagle frictions and Kolene steels and also includes the direct clutch Powerpack upgrade
3. Alto part# 133960 - this is an upgrade Red Eagle band that is not included in the other kits. Alto also offers these bands in "heavy duty wide- Red" and "heavy duty wide- kevlar" (part#s 133961, 133961K)

Here is the cost breakdown:
Motorcraft master rebuid kit $175
Alto part# 133750AHPPWR $175
Alto part# 133960 ~$20
Total cost $370

EnixStorm: you should really try to get one of the factory manuals before ordering parts, asking questions, etc. This will explain alot of things to you and in the end you are probably going to need the manual for the rebuild.

[EnixStorm]

Firstly, of course I don't know what I'm talking about that's why I'm here asking. No need to point out the obvious :/

I did order a manual, I have to wait for it though to come in so in the mean time I'm going to ask some questions and hopefully people like you who are experienced in these areas will provide me with answers

At least I had enough intuition to guess right on some things lol.

[RallyRacer]

Originally Posted by EnixStorm

Firstly, of course I don't know what I'm talking about that's why I'm here asking. No need to point out the obvious :/

I did order a manual, I have to wait for it though to come in so in the mean time I'm going to ask some questions and hopefully people like you who are experienced in these areas will provide me with answers

At least I had enough intuition to guess right on some things lol.

I hear ya. Good luck with your project; but remember you are rebuilding a transmission and it can look overwhelming without proper knowledge of the unit. I have seen others tear apart a transmission only to find out they have no clue what they are doing- so it sits there while they look for a used trans to install.
If you are used to in depth mechanical work- this will be easy.
Next month when I rebuild, I will post pictures about the process, hopefully it will help the curious out there (like you). I am glad to see others want to get more performance out of and understand their automatics, instead of making it a limitation. I am on these board almost every weekday, so feel free to PM me if you are stuck.

[EnixStorm]

thanks for the support. Luckily no job looks overwhelming to me. I work on ch-46e helicopters as an avionics technician so no job is too big lol. You can do anything with a tech manual once you learn how to use them that's for sure.

looking forward to pictures of your rebuild, hope all goes well for you.

[G-forces]

Originally Posted by RallyRacer

...Here are all the parts I SUGGEST you buy to replaced all the wear parts in the transmission:
1. Motorcraft part# MTKV-K4600-B - this kit includes all new pistoms, o-rings, gaskets, even the frictions and the steels, everything but the 2-4 band; or MTK-46900-B (cheaper, but not sure if that kit has the bonded pistons). You will not use the frictions and steels from the master kit if you are also buying the upgraded Alto clutches.
Now for the frictions and steels, I sugest:
2. Alto part# 133750AHPPWR - this includes all Red Eagle frictions and Kolene steels and also includes the direct clutch Powerpack upgrade
3. Alto part# 133960 - this is an upgrade Red Eagle band that is not included in the other kits. Alto also offers these bands in "heavy duty wide- Red" and "heavy duty wide- kevlar" (part#s 133961, 133961K)
...

Back from the archives.

I'm about to start a rebuild/upgrade. Does the Motorcraft master kit listed above include bushings and bearings? Or is it all gaskets, seals, and pistons (besides the discardable clutch packs)? If no bearings/bushings are included, I'm wondering if anyone can suggest which load bearing items I will be better off to replace while refreshing the rest. And any suggestions regarding the diff? Any special tools I can't do without?

All input will be appreciated.. my mechanical experience has an obvious "ATX hole" in it. That's one reason I'm looking forward to this rebuild/upgrade, aside from the better performance afterward.

[Z63R]

^ ^ ^ In addition to that performance rebuild, you'll probably need a performance-calibrated valvebody (FRPP has sold them; LenTech modified them for Ford) -AND- a digital tune to take care of what the VB doesn't... the 1-2 shift which is controlled by a pulse-width-modulated servo.

RallyRacer should have more info on the above; iirc he's posted a good-but-short post on a do-it-yourself calibration for the 4F27-E using, I think, an SCT XCal.

[G-forces]

Originally Posted by Z63R

^ ^ ^ In addition to that performance rebuild, you'll probably need a performance-calibrated valvebody (FRPP has sold them; LenTech modified them for Ford) -AND- a digital tune to take care of what the VB doesn't... the 1-2 shift which is controlled by a pulse-width-modulated servo.

RallyRacer should have more info on the above; iirc he's posted a good-but-short post on a do-it-yourself calibration for the 4F27-E using, I think, an SCT XCal.

Definately... I plan on the Lentech valve body and already have an xcal2 with FS tunes.

I guess a PM to RallyRacer might be my best bet. Thanks.

[amc49]

What do you do about the gear whine that occurs on many 4F27E from gear/bearing wear in the transfer gears to differential? No kit on planet addresses that issue. Just curious, one of those gears has a nut that torques at like 450 ft.lbs. of torque. You don't just do that on the old garage workbench. Will require special holding fixtures just to avoid damaging parts while torqueing that nut up. When bearing below that nut loses preload, the gear can tilt out of plane leading to abnormal gear teeth wear, causing the whine. Close to a similar common problem in the old Tempo/Excort ATX trans. Ford engineered trans to wear out in a difficult way to fix just like many other of their recent efforts.

[RallyRacer]

Originally Posted by G-forces

Back from the archives.

I'm about to start a rebuild/upgrade. Does the Motorcraft master kit listed above include bushings and bearings? Or is it all gaskets, seals, and pistons (besides the discardable clutch packs)? If no bearings/bushings are included, I'm wondering if anyone can suggest which load bearing items I will be better off to replace while refreshing the rest. And any suggestions regarding the diff? Any special tools I can't do without?

All input will be appreciated.. my mechanical experience has an obvious "ATX hole" in it. That's one reason I'm looking forward to this rebuild/upgrade, aside from the better performance afterward.

None of the Motorcraft kits or any other kits include bearings or cups. In fact that is not something that is usually in a transmission master kit. Unless you know there is bearing slop, worn cups and bearings, or you are doing the rebuild on a 200K mile transmission; you will be OK without replacing the cups and bearings. When I tore into mine at 100K miles there was very light scoring on the bearings and no slop. I replaced everything else though, including hard parts like the drums and input shaft.
The MTKV-K4600-B master kit is missing a few things I would consider mandatory replacement: fluid pump support thrust waster XS4Z-7H042-AB, intermediate/ overdrive band (2-4 band) XS4Z-7D034-AB (recommend Alto Red- 133960), direct clutch balance snap ring XS4Z-7H363-AB.

Rebuilding an automatic can be done in a garage with hand tools, but you will also need some specialty tools and some knowledge. You should get a hold of the complete OTC tool set for the 4F27E, Ford reference manual; and start from there. When I did my first rebuild that reference manual was worth its weight in gold.
Start with cleaning the transaxle spotless before you even open it. A very clean work place is important, use large white towels on you work bench when doing work like valve body assembly. Every part should be thoroughly cleaned and inspected. I used large amounts of simple green for degreasing and cleaning the transaxle before opening it, and a gallon of B-12 carb cleaner for all of the metal internal parts.
One thing to remember is if you have a failed clutch pack you will usually need to replace some "hard parts" like drum assemblies, thrust bearings, pressure plates, retaining rings, etc. This is where a Ford parts dealer (FORDSVTPARTS) can help you find those parts at low cost. Another tip: if any clutch failure occurred, always replace the torque converter as a part of the rebuild process. The torque converter is a large sediment trap and will spread clutch material and contaminate the transaxle fluid. Same goes for the transmission cooler, always replace the cooler if clutch failure occurred; or flushed if rebuilding without failure.

There is too much information and tips for me to write out, I could easily write a few pages on the rebuild process. For me to explain everything about the rebuild would take hours so I will just give a few tips I remember of the top of my head.
-The reference manual does not mention how to remove bonded gaskets off the valve body separator plate. DO NOT USE HEAT OR ABRASIVES TO REMOVE THE BONDED SEPARATOR PLATE GASKET. I found the best way is to soak the separator plate in Permatex gasket remover for 12-24hours and the bonded gasket will peel right off. The plated must not be warped or scored.
-Check the intermediate/overdrive band placement before replacing the end cover assembly. Make sure it is not hanging on the transaxle case.
-Clutch pack retaining rings and intermediate/overdrive band strut are select fit parts.
Check clutch pack clearances.
Clutch Pack clearance:
forward clutch- 1.5-1.8mm
direct clutch- 1.0-1.3mm
reverse clutch- 1.0-1.3mm
low/reverse clutch- 2.2-2.5mm
Measure and order proper rings and strut bolt if necessary.


There is just too much to go through! I will just stick to answering the specific questions from now on. Get the reference manual and study it, you will have far fewer questions.
Here is the tool set I use (OTC TKIT-2000-F/FM/FLM) along with the reference manual.

[RallyRacer]

Originally Posted by amc49

What do you do about the gear whine that occurs on many 4F27E from gear/bearing wear in the transfer gears to differential? No kit on planet addresses that issue. Just curious, one of those gears has a nut that torques at like 450 ft.lbs. of torque. You don't just do that on the old garage workbench. Will require special holding fixtures just to avoid damaging parts while torqueing that nut up. When bearing below that nut loses preload, the gear can tilt out of plane leading to abnormal gear teeth wear, causing the whine. Close to a similar common problem in the old Tempo/Excort ATX trans. Ford engineered trans to wear out in a difficult way to fix just like many other of their recent efforts.

Gear whine from a 4F27E, OK? I have never heard of that problem or experienced it so I can't help you there.

Just curious, one of those gears has a nut that torques at like 450 ft.lbs. of torque. You don't just do that on the old garage workbench.

Yes, I do those on a work bench in a garage. It's all about having the right tools and knowing what you are doing. The input drive gear nut uses a special socket (in the picture above) and is not tightened to 450ft/lbs but 332ft/lbs or 450Nm, while another special tool (final input drive gear holding tool) is holding the gear, and special tool (trans bench mounting bracket) holds the trans to a work bench.
There is a one time use collapsible spacer in that assembly that when not replaced can cause the problem you are describing. The Bearing preload is important when replacing the final drive input gear.

The 4F27E is bulletproof when built correctly so any issues with gear whine, etc. after a rebuild are the fault of an incompetent tech or not following the procedures like the on below.

[G-forces]

Great info... Thanks Rally! I had though I could use my Workshop Manual to guide me through, but if the pictures and guidance above are from the "4F27E Reference Manual", then I understand why I want one.

It looks like I won't be starting the rebuild as soon as I first thought, I have more to buy before I start. I assume you have to buy the tools from Ford, or is there a supplier out there that is less expensive? How much for that set?

[RallyRacer]

OTC makes the tool set that is supplied to Ford and can be purchased through OTC/SPX out of Owatonna, MN (507) 455-7000. Going that route will cost you like $1500 for the tool set I have above.
Ebay is your best bet for this tool set. I found mine for $150; 1/10th the cost of new!

[G-forces]

It's Ebay for me then! Do you know what to call that set? I need to narrow my search in some knowledgeable way.

[RallyRacer]

Originally Posted by G-forces

It's Ebay for me then! Do you know what to call that set? I need to narrow my search in some knowledgeable way.

I just search for "4f27e" and see what comes up. Last month there were like three of those tool kits for sale under $200, they must have sold. Keep checking because they are up for sale there time to time.

[G-forces]

Originally Posted by RallyRacer

I just search for "4f27e" and see what comes up. Last month there were like three of those tool kits for sale under $200, they must have sold. Keep checking because they are up for sale there time to time.

One more question for now, if you don't mind.

I've seen several 4f27e manuals for sale on Ebay, and they all have a publication date (the ones that said so anyway) of 2001. Is this out of date for a 2002 ATX or has the trans stayed un-tweeked for it's lifetime? I'm thinking they're good, but who knows, maybe there are so many because Ford changed stuff the next year.

[Z63R]

Rally, my good man, you are worth your weight in gold.

Thank you!

[amc49]

The gear whine starts as a gear rockover noise at very slow roll speeds before it gets worse. I do not rebuild for the market, just my own stuff. My '00 wagon started noise at 75K, my boy's '02 4 dr. does it at 48K. Both Ford built, no repairs yet. Apparently you can run it making the noise for quite a while (wagon now @134K), just wondering what gears will look like when trans broke open. You would still have to bolt that case down while torqueing up the collapsible spacer, that must be a stout workbench. I realize you may not have to go the whole torque amount, just till the gear turns with proper resistance. One time use on spacer only, go too far you get to break it back down and replace spacer. On the cooler, I read somewhere that Ford STRONGLY suggested not flushing or cleaning it on rebuild, replace only as it was too difficult to get all trash out of it. I agree on converter, change that sucker at rebuild, but beware people who will claim converter (and clutch surfaces inside) have been fully rebuilt when all they've done is clean it up, shoot a new coat of paint on it and call it "new". That's rampant here in Dallas area. How much trouble do you see from the end cover that has the built in support for rotating mass? Wear aroung seal ring grooves to be specific. Special tools present a problem of cost, You supposedly needed them on CD4E also, I managed to rebuild mine without buying a one but it took some thinking and cobbling up tools of my own. That guy right about running changes Ford makes, that CD4E had so many mods made it took several runs to the part store before I finally had all the changes sorted out. There were like 6 different length F/D/C cylinders alone. Naturally I had the 6th one they didn't have and they ordered in 3 more before got right part. On the subject of 4F27E manuals, I'd say stay away from the ATRA manual. That one sucks, the ATSG much better, of course Ford the best. Looking forward to the challenge of rebuilding one, have rebuilt every auto trans I own, all have lasted for many years (CD4E Contour now on 3rd). I like seeing if I can do it, also, probably the best I will ever get paid doing so.

[amc49]

Here's a question. Does 4F27E require a special tool to index the pump body to the stator support to guarantee mutual concentricity of both parts? Just looking at part breakdown in trans manual I have kinda leaves question unanswered. Can't tell whether the two parts key together or not.

[focituner2]

so where can i get this manual? do i call a dealership or is there a special place to order this?

[amc49]

If you live in the big city, check library tech reference section. I have gone there several times with either zerox copy money or looseleaf paper to course through the pretty much kept current factory Ford manuals to pick up critical clearances, specs, and routines. Those manuals can cost over $100 each in some cases. So far I have not had to buy one. I have a lot of the cheaper generic manuals but sometimes they are lacking or even tell you wrong information. Once factory Ford ones get a little older, you can many times find them at a Half Price Books outlet for a killing. I have picked up several that way dime on a dollar.