Manumatic conversion (?) - Focaljet

**Tony2.0** · 06-20-2008, 02:26 AM

Would it be do-able to rig up buttons to make the car shift up or down within drive with the standard automatic tranny? You would really only have to mod the ECU wouldn't you? Hook up your computer to your OBD hookup and make it shift when your buttons are hit rather than at the standard mix of throttle postion, rpm, and speed.

Definitely back everything up before you ever did anything

And obviously install your buttons.

Do-able?

I'd prefer a real manual tranny but I really don't trust myself to install it and don't really want to spend the money.

Edit: I just read that the OBD is built so you can't tamper with anything other than error codes and data collected by sensors, so I'd have to use the ECU.

**Tony2.0** · 06-22-2008, 12:10 AM

...crickets...

**Shun** · 06-22-2008, 12:22 AM

go get my boot so i can squash 'dem crickets!

Anyway.. I'm still a padawan "mechanic".. but I don't think it would be feasible unless you find a whole new shifter assembly.. then you may also need a stand alone ecu to which you can ADD parameters.. sort of like a sub routine to the transmission part of the ecu.. but doing it this way, there will be quite a bit of delay. It'd probably be the same in work and cost to just get an actual manual tranny

**Tony2.0** · 06-22-2008, 01:43 AM

Well, even if it is more effort, If i screw up a transmission it'll cost a lot to replace than if I screw up my ecu. And besides, a whole professional paddleshifter kit ( as universal as they come) is 1,400 bucks...so I figure it's basically impossible i'll spend that much

**EnixStorm** · 06-22-2008, 07:47 PM

I could rig up a buttion system for less than 20 bucks

Let me check out the wiring schematics again and also my tranny manual and I'll get back toy ou on how difficult it might be...

I personally just have a tune that allows me to shift completely manually. First the car shifts automatically through all the gears one time and then for the duration of the drive, completely manual.

**RallyRacer** · 06-22-2008, 09:03 PM

It will take more that a repair manual and $20 to make a trans control module. It is more complicated than "wiring buttons"; talk to Lentech, they made a controller for drag purposes, but it was very limited and not a true manual shift solution.
You would need to build a programmable solenoid controller for what you want to do. That is way over your head and very impractical. There are things to consider like solenoid timing, shift pressure for the desired load and throttle position, etc.
The practical solution would be to get the SCT PRP or another programing solution that allows you to modify every transaxle parameter. Then you can plot out your up and down shifts exactly how you want them.

**AcIdBuRn02ZTS** · 06-22-2008, 09:17 PM

I was planning on doing this and have all of the info to do it... but never could find anyone who would take on building the module... the shift controls of the atx are quite complicated just in how the solenoids opperate. Your best bet would be looking into seeing if its possible to swap in a mazda3 tranny and control module.

-AcId-

**Tony2.0** · 06-22-2008, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcIdBuRn02ZTS

... the shift controls of the atx are quite complicated just in how the solenoids opperate.

-AcId-

Isn't the whole idea to delete the shift controls and put the switches on/off in their place?

Also, I might be able to get my uncle, a computer programmer, to help me with this.

**EnixStorm** · 06-23-2008, 06:16 AM

well for one don't swap in a mazda 3 tranny...I have one and they SUCK. The rsx platform is about 13 thousand times better. When you shift up or down, there's like a .75 to 1.5 sec lag and it's a very very soft shift. I've driven 3 2008 vehicles and own one of them now and they were all the same.

And like Tony said, the point is complete manual control through electrical means...and it is doable, if you rigged a small actuator in place of the gear selector cable that's one way of doing it. I'm a helicopter avionics technician, we definitely have more complicated setups...

**RallyRacer** · 06-23-2008, 07:28 AM

You guys just want buttons instead of the console shifter? That would be easy, but does nothing for the shift times.
True manual control is more than just moving the shift selector. You would want those gear changes to be immediate which requires reprogramming of the factory ECU or a standalone trans controller.

**EnixStorm** · 06-23-2008, 10:06 AM

I personally like my shift lever

but I was just saying I understand what he wants, and if hes going a step further and actually wanting a separate button for each shift, well, that's wierd lol.

**focusownerskid** · 06-23-2008, 10:31 AM

Manual valvebody.

- Drew

**RallyRacer** · 06-23-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by focusownerskid

Manual valvebody.

- Drew

Nice. There is not one made for the 4F27e, so who is going to make one?
It makes me with I still had my 350ci '87 Cutlass with the TH350 trans. Now that transmission had all sorts of performance goodies for it, including a manual valvebody.

**EnixStorm** · 06-23-2008, 01:55 PM

why is it so difficult just to send signals to the shift solenoids to operate as commanded? If you tell the ECU to go F*** itself and not give the transmission commands...well ok I see maybe because the shift pressures are also commanded by the ECU how that might be a different problem to tackle

**focusownerskid** · 06-23-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RallyRacer

Nice. There is not one made for the 4F27e, so who is going to make one?
It makes me with I still had my 350ci '87 Cutlass with the TH350 trans. Now that transmission had all sorts of performance goodies for it, including a manual valvebody.

Yes there is, made by Lentech.

- Drew

**RallyRacer** · 06-23-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by focusownerskid

Yes there is, made by Lentech.

- Drew

No, they make a recalibrated valvebody, firms up the 2-3 shift nice.
They also used to make a transaxle controller that allowed manual operation. Is that what you are confusing?

**Z63R** · 06-23-2008, 02:44 PM

Either way, a typical manual vb as found in other, older planetary automatics would have the trans become a hard-shifing mofo; great for the track but not the thing for a regular-duty streeter. I've been there.

These PCM-controlled transaxles can be perfectly repeatable and win you many bracket races at the track if simply left in Drive.

For open road and/or twisty road driving, the use of the O/D off button as the "shifter" between 3-4 and 4-3 works well as does the manual selection of 2nd on the lever for the times when you don't want 3rd.

Thing is, it's not really worth going to the lengths of attempting to acheive a true "manu-matic" interface because the Focus 4F27-E is a four-speed and therefore lacking in the performance ratios for needed for the tight confines of an autocross course and other tight corner exits.

2nd in the 4F27-E is like third in the MTX-75. It's tall; too tall for the tight stuff, and the PCM won't give you first, which, for most unskilled drivers, is too short a ratio.

Stick a street terminator automatic vb (or whatever it's called) in there like I did and have a nice day. If you want to drive true paddle-shifted heaven, sell the Focus and go by a Golf with DSG.

**RallyRacer** · 06-23-2008, 02:57 PM

^^Exactly. This trans is just not worth the trouble, and you described the biggest limitation- the tall gearing. No matter how many dollars you invest, it is still just a 4-speed slushbox.
Program the factory computer to shift firm, where you want it, and call it a day. Using a SCT file with automatic transaxle adaptive learing turned off (by tuner), and setting the shift pressures to +25% on Xcal2, I am able to chirp 2nd gear at WOT with my 130whp beast

Just enough to be fun; but I will still get the PRP to get those shifts even better and address the TC lock-up schedule.

**Tony2.0** · 06-23-2008, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RallyRacer

You guys just want buttons instead of the console shifter? That would be easy, but does nothing for the shift times.

I don't need faster/ firmer shifts. And even for when I did want them couldn't I just get a SCT flasher or something of that nature after I'm done?

**RallyRacer** · 06-23-2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony2.0

I don't need faster/ firmer shifts. And even for when I did want them couldn't I just get a SCT flasher or something of that nature after I'm done?

The idea of a manumatic trans is that it changes gear when you tap the up/down shift button. With your idea there is a delay when changing gears manually, and is in no way like a manumatic.
Well, you are still talking about rigging up an actuator motor to control the mechanical part of placing the trans into selected gear. All of that for buttons to change gears? I don't get it.

**EnixStorm** · 06-23-2008, 05:13 PM

It's cool that's why, LOL

Well, The thing is...I'd rather have a tq converter than a clutch, just personal preference...If there was a 5 speed automatic available to us, I'd stick it in! The mazda 5 speed sucks donkey balls, but then again it could just be the stock programming. The reason I don't like it is because of how soft(expected) the shifts are but really the lag time in between the shifts is the absolute biggest problem I have. The RSX supposedly has a very very quick hard shifting platform on their shiftronics...

**Tony2.0** · 06-23-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RallyRacer

All of that for buttons to change gears? I don't get it.

180 bucks to get a good intake sound when I punch it?

200 bucks to get a better exhaust note that crackles when I let off?

More gas than anyone would like to admit spend on cruisin to nowhere?

It's all a waste if you look at it that way.

**RallyRacer** · 06-23-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony2.0

180 bucks to get a good intake sound when I punch it?

200 bucks to get a better exhaust note that crackles when I let off?

More gas than anyone would like to admit spend on cruisin to nowhere?

It's all a waste if you look at it that way.

That makes no sense. What you want to do does nothing for performance and nothing for aesthetics because the shifts will still be delayed and not operate like a manumatic.
But if your project is to make a button shift automatic like they had back in the '50s , have at it. Maybe you want to get rid of the shifter so you can install a bench seat.

Just a joke.

**orionlion82** · 06-23-2008, 08:05 PM

as far as i know the only computer controlled shift is between 1 and 2

right?

the rest are done internally by some mechanical automation.
physics does the shifting after second gear - not a computer.

06-20-2008, 02:26 AM	#1
Tony2.0 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Dakota Posts: 78	Manumatic conversion (?) Would it be do-able to rig up buttons to make the car shift up or down within drive with the standard automatic tranny? You would really only have to mod the ECU wouldn't you? Hook up your computer to your OBD hookup and make it shift when your buttons are hit rather than at the standard mix of throttle postion, rpm, and speed. Definitely back everything up before you ever did anything And obviously install your buttons. Do-able? I'd prefer a real manual tranny but I really don't trust myself to install it and don't really want to spend the money. Edit: I just read that the OBD is built so you can't tamper with anything other than error codes and data collected by sensors, so I'd have to use the ECU. Last edited by Tony2.0 : 06-20-2008 at 02:41 AM.

06-22-2008, 12:10 AM	#2
Tony2.0 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Dakota Posts: 78	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) ...crickets...

06-22-2008, 01:43 AM	#4
Tony2.0 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Dakota Posts: 78	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) Well, even if it is more effort, If i screw up a transmission it'll cost a lot to replace than if I screw up my ecu. And besides, a whole professional paddleshifter kit ( as universal as they come) is 1,400 bucks...so I figure it's basically impossible i'll spend that much

06-22-2008, 07:47 PM	#5
EnixStorm Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jacksonville, N.C. Posts: 1,478	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) I could rig up a buttion system for less than 20 bucks Let me check out the wiring schematics again and also my tranny manual and I'll get back toy ou on how difficult it might be... I personally just have a tune that allows me to shift completely manually. First the car shifts automatically through all the gears one time and then for the duration of the drive, completely manual. __________________ -2003 SE PZEV ATX - FS 2.3l Stage 2 1/4: 13.78@100mph -2008 Mazda 3S Touring 2.3l w/VVT

06-22-2008, 09:03 PM	#6
RallyRacer TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Burnsville, MN Posts: 725	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) It will take more that a repair manual and $20 to make a trans control module. It is more complicated than "wiring buttons"; talk to Lentech, they made a controller for drag purposes, but it was very limited and not a true manual shift solution. You would need to build a programmable solenoid controller for what you want to do. That is way over your head and very impractical. There are things to consider like solenoid timing, shift pressure for the desired load and throttle position, etc. The practical solution would be to get the SCT PRP or another programing solution that allows you to modify every transaxle parameter. Then you can plot out your up and down shifts exactly how you want them. __________________ 2001 ZX3 Infra-Red, Auto Power: Volant Ram Air, 65mm FC TB, 2000 ported intake, SVT header, Random ORP, Bosal flex, Borla exhaust, Esslinger UDP, FocusSport Xcal2(FR stage1 cams and gears to be installed) Handling: Energy bushings everywhere, Koni Adjustable dampers, H&R sport springs, SVT rear swaybar, FC rear toe links Braking: SVT brake kit, Hawk HPS pads F&R, Aeroquip braided lines

06-22-2008, 09:17 PM	#7
AcIdBuRn02ZTS Senior TEAM Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Boonville, IN Posts: 1,626	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) I was planning on doing this and have all of the info to do it... but never could find anyone who would take on building the module... the shift controls of the atx are quite complicated just in how the solenoids opperate. Your best bet would be looking into seeing if its possible to swap in a mazda3 tranny and control module. -AcId- __________________ *2002 - Twilight Blue ZTS* Built Engine, Getrag 6spd w/ Quaife, Full Eibach Suspension, 16" Enkei J10's wrapped in Pirelli P-Zero's, soon to come... 20psi daily driven http://www.sounddomain.com/ride/2523022 The only difference between Obama and Osama... is just a little B.S.

06-23-2008, 06:16 AM	#9
EnixStorm Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jacksonville, N.C. Posts: 1,478	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) well for one don't swap in a mazda 3 tranny...I have one and they SUCK. The rsx platform is about 13 thousand times better. When you shift up or down, there's like a .75 to 1.5 sec lag and it's a very very soft shift. I've driven 3 2008 vehicles and own one of them now and they were all the same. And like Tony said, the point is complete manual control through electrical means...and it is doable, if you rigged a small actuator in place of the gear selector cable that's one way of doing it. I'm a helicopter avionics technician, we definitely have more complicated setups... __________________ -2003 SE PZEV ATX - FS 2.3l Stage 2 1/4: 13.78@100mph -2008 Mazda 3S Touring 2.3l w/VVT

06-23-2008, 07:28 AM	#10
RallyRacer TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Burnsville, MN Posts: 725	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) You guys just want buttons instead of the console shifter? That would be easy, but does nothing for the shift times. True manual control is more than just moving the shift selector. You would want those gear changes to be immediate which requires reprogramming of the factory ECU or a standalone trans controller. __________________ 2001 ZX3 Infra-Red, Auto Power: Volant Ram Air, 65mm FC TB, 2000 ported intake, SVT header, Random ORP, Bosal flex, Borla exhaust, Esslinger UDP, FocusSport Xcal2(FR stage1 cams and gears to be installed) Handling: Energy bushings everywhere, Koni Adjustable dampers, H&R sport springs, SVT rear swaybar, FC rear toe links Braking: SVT brake kit, Hawk HPS pads F&R, Aeroquip braided lines

06-23-2008, 10:06 AM	#11
EnixStorm Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jacksonville, N.C. Posts: 1,478	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) I personally like my shift lever but I was just saying I understand what he wants, and if hes going a step further and actually wanting a separate button for each shift, well, that's wierd lol. __________________ -2003 SE PZEV ATX - FS 2.3l Stage 2 1/4: 13.78@100mph -2008 Mazda 3S Touring 2.3l w/VVT

06-23-2008, 10:31 AM	#12
focusownerskid Administrator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroe, MI Posts: 15,307	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) Manual valvebody. - Drew __________________ '02.5 SVTF/'01 ZX3 "28R edition"; type dRew & friends Motorsports.

06-23-2008, 01:55 PM	#14
EnixStorm Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jacksonville, N.C. Posts: 1,478	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) why is it so difficult just to send signals to the shift solenoids to operate as commanded? If you tell the ECU to go F*** itself and not give the transmission commands...well ok I see maybe because the shift pressures are also commanded by the ECU how that might be a different problem to tackle __________________ -2003 SE PZEV ATX - FS 2.3l Stage 2 1/4: 13.78@100mph -2008 Mazda 3S Touring 2.3l w/VVT

06-23-2008, 02:44 PM	#17
Z63R Official [FJ] Distinguished Advisor Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 19,499	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) Either way, a typical manual vb as found in other, older planetary automatics would have the trans become a hard-shifing mofo; great for the track but not the thing for a regular-duty streeter. I've been there. These PCM-controlled transaxles can be perfectly repeatable and win you many bracket races at the track if simply left in Drive. For open road and/or twisty road driving, the use of the O/D off button as the "shifter" between 3-4 and 4-3 works well as does the manual selection of 2nd on the lever for the times when you don't want 3rd. Thing is, it's not really worth going to the lengths of attempting to acheive a true "manu-matic" interface because the Focus 4F27-E is a four-speed and therefore lacking in the performance ratios for needed for the tight confines of an autocross course and other tight corner exits. 2nd in the 4F27-E is like third in the MTX-75. It's tall; too tall for the tight stuff, and the PCM won't give you first, which, for most unskilled drivers, is too short a ratio. Stick a street terminator automatic vb (or whatever it's called) in there like I did and have a nice day. If you want to drive true paddle-shifted heaven, sell the Focus and go by a Golf with DSG. __________________ . 2.3 Duratec ZX3 + some bits

06-23-2008, 02:57 PM	#18
RallyRacer TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Burnsville, MN Posts: 725	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) ^^Exactly. This trans is just not worth the trouble, and you described the biggest limitation- the tall gearing. No matter how many dollars you invest, it is still just a 4-speed slushbox. Program the factory computer to shift firm, where you want it, and call it a day. Using a SCT file with automatic transaxle adaptive learing turned off (by tuner), and setting the shift pressures to +25% on Xcal2, I am able to chirp 2nd gear at WOT with my 130whp beast Just enough to be fun; but I will still get the PRP to get those shifts even better and address the TC lock-up schedule. __________________ 2001 ZX3 Infra-Red, Auto Power: Volant Ram Air, 65mm FC TB, 2000 ported intake, SVT header, Random ORP, Bosal flex, Borla exhaust, Esslinger UDP, FocusSport Xcal2(FR stage1 cams and gears to be installed) Handling: Energy bushings everywhere, Koni Adjustable dampers, H&R sport springs, SVT rear swaybar, FC rear toe links Braking: SVT brake kit, Hawk HPS pads F&R, Aeroquip braided lines

06-23-2008, 05:13 PM	#21
EnixStorm Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jacksonville, N.C. Posts: 1,478	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) It's cool that's why, LOL Well, The thing is...I'd rather have a tq converter than a clutch, just personal preference...If there was a 5 speed automatic available to us, I'd stick it in! The mazda 5 speed sucks donkey balls, but then again it could just be the stock programming. The reason I don't like it is because of how soft(expected) the shifts are but really the lag time in between the shifts is the absolute biggest problem I have. The RSX supposedly has a very very quick hard shifting platform on their shiftronics... __________________ -2003 SE PZEV ATX - FS 2.3l Stage 2 1/4: 13.78@100mph -2008 Mazda 3S Touring 2.3l w/VVT

06-23-2008, 08:05 PM	#24
orionlion82 WARNING: This post may be hazardous to your health. Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,805	Re: Manumatic conversion (?) as far as i know the only computer controlled shift is between 1 and 2 right? the rest are done internally by some mechanical automation. physics does the shifting after second gear - not a computer.