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Thread: Cryo treatment?

  1. #1
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>


    Above is a picture of two of my Baer Racing Rotors. On the left, this rotor was on the car for approximately 19,000 miles and 15 months of daily street driving. It was also occaisonally subjected to the odd auto-cross, and Silver State Classic Challenge race. It was used with the standard issue PBR "Street" pad, then subjected to the Performance Friction "Z" pad at about 10,000 miles. This rotor, as well as the other three on the car, were the original set as purchased from Baer in January of 1999, then cryo treated by 300 Below (http://www.300below.com). At $90 for a full set of four rotors, it was cheap insurance if it worked 1/2 as good as they claimed it did.

    The rotor on the right is the replacement rotor for the first one. This rotor was purchased in June of 2000. Between June and November, it saw roughly 4,000 street miles, no racing or auto-crossing of any kind. This rotor was used exclusively with the Performance Friction "Z" pad. Out of stupidity (lack of funds was also a factor), this set was not cryo treated. As you can see, the cracks developed in a very short period of time were actually worse than the cracks sustained to the treated rotor in a fraction of the time and mileage. This rotor also caused a noticeable vibration as the pad grabbed on the edge of the crack during each rotation of the wheel.

    I switched back to the rotor on the left and drove for approximately 2 weeks while awaiting arrival of the new replacement from Baer/300 Below. It is now in the car and working flawlessly. Upon inspection of the passenger side rotor today, which also was not cryoed, it too has stress cracks. We are now on to about 5,000 miles and 6 months of daily use. When I replace this one in the near future, I will have it sent right from Baer to 300 Below. $200 per rotors is just too much to throw away ever 6 months.

    For those non-believers out there, I have answered the question, at least for myself. Cryoing IS worth it.

    Original (cryoed) rotor after failure - ~19,000 miles/15 months

    Replacement Baer rotor (not cryoed) after failure - ~4,000 miles/5 months <hr></blockquote>

    Found it here...

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    i saw that, i would just like some technical insight by some metal speciallists on here, i know we have some. IS this process legit with the molecule straightning talk and stuff?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    I'd ask the guys as Diversified Cryogenics, they do all the frozen rotors stuff for racers. www.frozenrotors.com I've only heard good things about it. Check with someone who has some knowledge working with cryotreated stuff. The technical papers I read on it in school were very very encouraging. And yes Naz, it is legitimate metalurgy. Good stuff.

    [ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: familyman ]</p>

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    i was thinking before having my shortblock put together, to dip everything, even the aftermarket stuff.

    i know you can dip cyl heads, cams and stuff, so can i just dip an asembled cylinder head or do i have to take it apart? I know that you can treat ALL the parts of the cylinder head, so im just wondering if you can dip an assembled one, would be MUCH easier to NOT dissasamble it and stuff, especially with things like springs, retainers, keepers, buckets, that would be a pain

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    Not a big issue but,
    the (old) rotors on the left has far less cooling holes and the holes are not over each other as you see in both sets of pics. It may not have help the problem?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    Just call them and ask them. They'll let you know. I think it's a good idea though. I've even heard of people getting the block cryo-treated when there is a chance that it will fail. Gearsets are another thing that's big in the land of cryo-treating.
    You really need to decide what needs to be stronger. Do you have a chance of the top end failing from stress? My bet is you'd be better off just getting the crank, rods, pistons and all the assorted bolts and caps treated. Box them up, ship them off and get a cold box back. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] No problemo.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 12psi:
    Not a big issue but,
    the (old) rotors on the left has far less cooling holes and the holes are not over each other as you see in both sets of pics. It may not have help the problem?
    <hr></blockquote>


    I noticed this as well. I would bet that it certainly didn't help the problem at all. Drilled rotors are prone to cracking and so if you put more holes, closer together, you're going to have a higher probability of cracking and more severe cracks at that. Why this guy was using drilled and slotted rotors for just daily driving and the occasional performance application is beyond me. Although the cryo treatment might have helped out the rotor on the right somewhat, that whole argument is weak at best.

    I have heard good things about cryo treating parts though and it seems like a small price to pay for added protection. If you're already going to be spending quite a bit of coin on a built engine I see no reason not to go ahead with the treatment.

    [edit for poor spelling]

    [ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Skyline ]</p>

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    Racing pushes engine and drive train components to the absolute limits of their durability. Extending those limits means more speed, better safety, and more races won. For this reason Cryogenic processing is becoming a necessary part of the manufacturing process for racing components. This racing experience will serve as an example to manufacturing industries---now similarly engaged in there own competition against manufacturing costs and waste, and the challenge to provide high quality products with superior performance.

    Using extremely low temperatures to make permanent changes in metal and plastic components, cryogenic processing is not the typical 84 degrees C (-120 degrees F) cold treatment most heat treaters use. It essentially involves exposing materials to temperatures below 184 degrees C (-300 degrees F). If done correctly, it creates a permanent change to the material that alters many wear characteristics.

    The concept of changing metal through the use of low temperatures is relatively new and not well understood. Yet it is certain that exposure to very low temperatures does make permanent changes in virtually all metals and to some plastics. Observed changes include:

    ● Increased resistance to abrasion

    ● Increased resistance to fatigue

    ● Precipitation of very fine carbides in ferrous metals that contain carbide forming elements.

    ● Transformation of austenite to martensite in ferrous metals.

    ● Change in vibrational damping.

    ● Increased electrical conductivity.

    ● Anecdotal evidence of changes in heat transfer.

    ● Stabilization of metals to reduce warping under heat, stress, and vibration.

    In practice, cryogenic processing affects the entire mass of the part. It is not a coating. This means that parts can be machined after treatment without losing the benefit of the process. Additionally, cryogenics apply to metals in general, not just ferrous metals. For many years, it was assumed the only change caused by extreme cold was the transformation of retained austenite to martensite in steel and iron. Because of this, many misinformed engineers still believe that cryogenic processing is "just a fix for bad heat treat". It is now known that cryogenic processing has a definite affect on copper, titanium, carbide, silver, brass, bronze, aluminum, both austenitic and martensitic stainless steel, mild steel and others. It is also known that plastics such as nylon and phenolics show property changes.

    Racing applications:
    Cryogenic processing is currently in use in every form of racing imaginable. It is used in virtually every class of NASCAR racing, IRL, CART, NHRA, IHRA, SCCA, IMSA and ARCA, not to mention tractor pulls, go-karts, motorcycles, boats, and even lawn mower racing. Controlled Thermal Processing (CTP) has even done a fair number of axles for soap- box derby cars. Over half of the cars competing at any given NASCAR Winston Cup race run parts that are cryogenically treated by CTP alone. Cryogenic processing can have a positive affect on virtually every engine, transmission, and drive line part, as well as many chassis parts.

    Are there definite tests and data on racing and cryogenic processing that we can point you to? Not yet. Racers do most of their testing on the race- track or on the dynamometer. These are not controlled experiments in the classical sense, and in most cases they do not allow the results to be published because of the risk of losing competitive advantages. We do know that the use of cryogenic processing is on the upswing. Its use by manufacturers of racing components has been growing sharply. We also know that very experienced racing experts have examined the effects of cryogenic processing and have been very impressed.

    Increasing the durability of components in the vehicles is the main reason for using cryogenic processing. Racing continually presents the engineer with the challenge of designing engine and chassis components that will survive long enough to win a race, but will not have any excess weight as a consequence. Put in too much mass, and a car will be slow and handle poorly. Make components too light, and they will not survive the race. There is always this delicate balance: weight versus reliability. The great thing about cryogenic processing is that it allows an increase in durability without an increase in weight or major modifications to component design. In addition, the use of cryogenic processing has helped some racing teams reduce costs, enabling some expensive parts to survive the stresses of racing for use in subsequent races.

    Performance advantages:
    Cryogenic processing has become an integral part of the production process for many racing components. Many top racing teams have the process done if the manufacturer does not provide it. They do so because cryogenic processing has proven its worth time and again under extremely competitive conditions. Racers are generally people in a big hurry and would not take the time for cryogenic processing if there was no advantage to it. Applications that benefit from cryogenic treatment probably number more than anyone expects.

    Brakes and Clutches:
    Brakes of a racing car take a real beating. It is not unusual for a racing vehicle to finish a race with the brakes totally worn out. This is especially true during road races and endurance racing, where brake rotors can get so hot they glow visibly at night. Cryogenic processing can be applied to both rotors and pads. The net result is two to three times the life of untreated components even under severe racing conditions. As a side benefit, the rotors are less prone to crack or warp. It is interesting that drivers report better braking action and feel. Some drivers are so sold on the concept that they have their street vehicles equipped with treated brakes.

    Clutches are a form of brake, and the results are very similar. Drag racers have been doing some work on clutch plates to measure the coefficient of friction in highly instrumented cars. They find that treated clutch facings will develop a higher coefficient of friction but exhibit significantly less wear.

    As an offshoot of racing development, cryogenically treated rotors and pads are making their way into fleet operations on the road. The U.S. postal service specifies cryogenic processing for their rotors and is experiencing up to three times as many miles as they were getting on the unprocessed rotors. Similarly, many police fleets are starting to adopt treating rotors and pads. They, too, are experiencing large maintenance savings on both parts and labor. What is metallurgically interesting is that the brakes are a gray cast iron that has a pearlitic structure. This rules out the austenite to martensite transformation as the mechanism for increase life.

    Springs:
    Not unexpectedly, chassis springs are also affected by cryogenic processing. Chassis springs lose their spring constant during a race. This can cause the chassis to lose its cornering ability, which drastically slows the car. Loss of spring constant also alters the height or road clearance of the vehicle. The vehicle height is critical at high speeds because it has a big affect on the aerodynamics of the car, and hence on the handling and the top speed of the car.

    Further advantage for cryogenic processing of springs is that the process seems to eliminate or reduce harmonic vibrations. If you have ever seen a high-speed movie of a valve spring at high engine rpm, you will notice that the springs do not simply move up and down. It does a very complex hula dance because of the harmonic vibrations. Racers typically have to design the spring and valve trains so that harmonics do not interfere with the valve action.

    Cryogenic processing of springs will usually triple the life before fatigue failure occurs, and it will reduce the amount of spring constant lost from 20-30% down to about 7%. This makes it easier to set up the engine, as there is not such a wide variation in the spring performance. It is difficult to determine absolute spring life increases, because the racers typically discard them long before they break. We do no one drag racer who use to change springs after each run: He now makes seven runs before changes.

    There is a Caveat.
    Occasionally we come across groups of springs that will not respond to cryogenics. Analysis of these springs usually discloses large inclusions in the wire, which become stress concentrators, causing failures at these locations.

    We offer a Cyro on most all of our products.

    here is a price list.
    Cryogenically treated Parts

    Parts 4Cyl.
    Blocks $260.00
    Brake Rotors ea. $50.00
    Camshaft ea. $28.00
    Clutch set $110.00
    Complete Engine $450.00
    Connecting Rods ea. $20.50
    Crankshaft ea. $175.00
    Engine w/ Trans $1200.00
    Head $175.00
    Intake manifolds $45.00
    Jugs ea. $80.00
    Pistons w/ pins ea. $19.00
    Planetary Gears $90.00
    Pushrods ea. $3.00
    Ring & Pinions set $110.00
    Rings Cylinder $3.00
    Rocker arms ea. $3.00
    Roller Lifters $35.00
    Sleeves ea. $55.00
    Spark plugs ea. $3.00
    Timing set $20.00
    Transmissions $350.00
    Valves ea. $3.00
    Valve Springs ea $3.00
    Under 4 oz ea. $3.00


    All parts not listed are $ 8.00 per lb
    Shipping is not included in this price sheet.
    All parts must be free from grease and oil.
    All parts must be completely disassembled.
    Process starts on Friday and is finished on Monday afternoon

    [ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Shawn_childs-albert.com ]</p>

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    umm you cant paste HTML in here...that post is HUGE [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    Might want to recheck that price list man.

    How about these guys.

    www.coldfire.com

    It seems like some sort of hot/cold cycling. Sounds interesting. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    I fixed it. kinda.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    That HAS to be the HUGEST post ever!!??

    This Cryo treating is interesting.

    Are there many places that do this? Probably nothing in Canada.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    Prices look right what do you mean?

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    Shawn,
    If a complete cryo treatment for an engine is $450 and a complete tranny treatment is $350, why does it list $1200 for "engine w/trans" ? Am I missing something? [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Cryo treatment?

    That is the v8 cost sorry
    should be 600.00


 
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