Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?
Hello and welcome to our community! Is this your first visit?
Register

Tire Rack Winter 2015

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19
  1. #1
    DoubleStuf™
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Parkville, MD
    Posts
    3,716

    Default Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    If anyone has any thoughts on the topic I'd love to hear them.

    http://www.somender-singh.com/
    (You have to register to get access to all the good pics. It's free & has a forum)



    I've researched this guy Somender Singh a little. Don't let his website turn you off. I think he knows engines a little better then he knows marketing / propper gramatical english.
    Now being tuned by the world class, fastest of the fast, baddest of the bad-ass worker of hokus-pokus on the focus! Give it up for Mr. Randy Robles of FSWerks!!
    Torsen, 4.06,
    Fidanza FW, Luk ProGold clutch, Cosworth IM, Stg 2 Crane cams, Eagle ConRods, 12.5:1cr 88mm Supertech pistons, CFM Adj. cam gears, Cosworth CAI, Draxas & Trubendz exhaust, SVT Brakes, ST200 Rims, Koni Sports, Apex springs, poly FLCA & dog-bone bushings, Progress 22mm RSB, TriAx/F STS, XCal2- *Now with more ProRacer!*

  2. Remove Advertisements
    FocalJet.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Official [FJ] Distinguished Advisor Z63R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    TEAM AllCal
    Posts
    19,806

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    From your link, sir...

    Accelerated Laminar Total Clean Burn Combustion

    ALTCBC improves " Torque & Power " through the entire operating range with lesser amounts of fuel.

    "Remember the most important factor in increasing engine performance and efficiency is to create " maximum turbulence " in the compression chamber."--Engine Legend Pat Goodman
    This Singh fellow is interesting and is well-motivated to be sure.

    What I find cool about all this is that the 2.3 Duratec PZEV (the only Duratec I am more than familiar with) incorporates turbulence-generators to vastly reduce idle emissions. Tumble flaps, as they were previously known... now called "charge motion control" are external from the cylinder head.

    I suppose, not having read much more than the first page on your link, that these "grooves" are to be milled into the combustion chamber of just about any conventinal internal-combustion engine. There was mention of some fairly radical efficiency increases with the now-ancient side-valve (flathead) engines, too.

    I'd think that this is even more reason not to delete the tumble flaps on our engines...

    I'll read more of his stuff in the next few days when I'm not so freaking tired from 12 hour days at work. :-)~
    .
    "Wine tasting isn't bad, but given the choice, I'd rather drink left-over beer and replace brake pads." - OmniFocus

    2.3 Duratec ZX3 + some bits

  4. #3
    DoubleStuf™
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Parkville, MD
    Posts
    3,716

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?






    Now being tuned by the world class, fastest of the fast, baddest of the bad-ass worker of hokus-pokus on the focus! Give it up for Mr. Randy Robles of FSWerks!!
    Torsen, 4.06,
    Fidanza FW, Luk ProGold clutch, Cosworth IM, Stg 2 Crane cams, Eagle ConRods, 12.5:1cr 88mm Supertech pistons, CFM Adj. cam gears, Cosworth CAI, Draxas & Trubendz exhaust, SVT Brakes, ST200 Rims, Koni Sports, Apex springs, poly FLCA & dog-bone bushings, Progress 22mm RSB, TriAx/F STS, XCal2- *Now with more ProRacer!*

  5. Remove Advertisements
    FocalJet.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Senior TEAM Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    angola, NY
    Posts
    1,551

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    he only mentioned 2 valve engines and did so specifically, with as little knowledge as i have on the subject i would find it difficult to believe that most of us have the resources or knowhow to do this or at least do this optimally. my concern would be over doing it and the fact that placement will probably have a key effect.

    he claimed a decrease in peak but a longer more usable power band and increase in efficiency. I'm very interested in seeing side by side numbers with our engines.

    nice find though.
    2006 zx3, 2.0 PZEV. Toreador red
    Body Mods: Roush front fascia, HIDs (6k), 5% Tint, Blue turns, Silverstar fogs, painted headlights, BOSCH wipers.
    Performance Mods: MBRP exhust, F2 CAI, F2 Header, Cosworth Cams, CFM 65mm TB, FC short throw, Steeda MIL eliminator, energy dogbone inserts, SVT 5 spoke wheels w/ Hankook K106 rubber, SVT dampers and FRPP 1 1/2 drop springs, Bix RSB retrofit, Eibach anti-roll kit(22mm front/25mm rear), slotted rotors and Hawk HPS pads, XCAL2 by FocusSport.

  7. #5
    DoubleStuf™
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Parkville, MD
    Posts
    3,716

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    It is true that there seems to be much more on this subject regarding 2 valve heads. However, I did find one picture on his site of a typical pent-prizm, 4 valve design similar to our duratecs, with grooves applied.

    Actually cutting the grooves sounds easy for anyone with the cahones to try it. He explains exactly where & how to place them.

    I can also say that, similar to the pictures I posted above of the un-modified chamber's carbon deposit patern, I saw a similar carbon deposit patern in the D23 engine I tore down.
    Last edited by Oreo; Sep 14, 2007 at 2:40 PM.
    Now being tuned by the world class, fastest of the fast, baddest of the bad-ass worker of hokus-pokus on the focus! Give it up for Mr. Randy Robles of FSWerks!!
    Torsen, 4.06,
    Fidanza FW, Luk ProGold clutch, Cosworth IM, Stg 2 Crane cams, Eagle ConRods, 12.5:1cr 88mm Supertech pistons, CFM Adj. cam gears, Cosworth CAI, Draxas & Trubendz exhaust, SVT Brakes, ST200 Rims, Koni Sports, Apex springs, poly FLCA & dog-bone bushings, Progress 22mm RSB, TriAx/F STS, XCal2- *Now with more ProRacer!*

  8. #6
    TEAM Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    345

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    The carbon deposition would appear to me to be a problem. With the engine mods I did in the '60s and '70s, any defect in smoothness of the combustion chamber would add chances for detonation and dieseling.

    That being said, however, these new emission-controlled engines behave completely differently from the old ones. I'm amazed at the things designers do now without causing problems. I keep coming back to the point that there seems to be a delicate balance between components and their interactions. I would wonder what part of the combustion formula would go wacky with a mod like that.
    Even paranoids have enemies.

  9. #7
    TEAM Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Silvana, WA
    Posts
    104

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    MMmmmmmm full of conspiracy shroaded godness! Love it!!!!
    '05 2L Duratec ZX3, manual trans.
    Mods: "Fatty" rear spoiler, mask, debadged, "SES" fogs, intermittent wipers, MBRP (modified) Cat-back.
    Tunes: Shaker500 deck, Polk DB570's and an Infinity BassLink Sub.

  10. #8
    DoubleStuf™
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Parkville, MD
    Posts
    3,716

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    I'm apprehensive about posting my own explanation because I don't want to get it wrong- and the information is all out there if you search. But I'll try to cover it in a very small nutshell. Maybe it will keep this discussion going.

    Basically, you want the charge to combust as fast as possible for the best power. This happens by creating turbulence in the cylinder as the charge burns, & also helps resist detonation. This is traditionally accomplished by "squish" or "quench" zones where the piston very nearly closes the gap to the head. As the charge squeezes out of these squish zones the jet of air causes turbulence.

    Sommender Singh has devised a clever way to increase the turbulence in a controlled way. The animations I posted display the theoretical effect. The pictures I posted are supposed to show how the grooves took the combustion all the way to the cylinder wall. If you look on the cylinder without the grooves, on the squish pad there is an area near the cylinder wall where hardly any combustion was taking place. So he's claiming that his grooves cause a more complete burn of the entire charge- no unburnt charge hiding in the nooks & crannies as it were. Faster, more complete burn should equal more power.

    But seriously... do some light reading on this stuff from a real source. There's quite a bit of complex stuff happening in there. You'd never even realize unless you actually did some research. It's one of the primary ways that our modern engines differ from older, more classic engines.
    Now being tuned by the world class, fastest of the fast, baddest of the bad-ass worker of hokus-pokus on the focus! Give it up for Mr. Randy Robles of FSWerks!!
    Torsen, 4.06,
    Fidanza FW, Luk ProGold clutch, Cosworth IM, Stg 2 Crane cams, Eagle ConRods, 12.5:1cr 88mm Supertech pistons, CFM Adj. cam gears, Cosworth CAI, Draxas & Trubendz exhaust, SVT Brakes, ST200 Rims, Koni Sports, Apex springs, poly FLCA & dog-bone bushings, Progress 22mm RSB, TriAx/F STS, XCal2- *Now with more ProRacer!*

  11. #9
    TEAM Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    345

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    What I was referring to regarding carbon, apart from the detonation, is that it tends to fill in grooves and other irregularities in the chamber. I have never cracked the head on an engine newer than 1980, so I'm not sure what kind of problem carbon is now. In the older engines there is a coat of carbon that would nearly fill the end of the grooves and make the whole thing different than intended.

    On the other hand, I don't see the black tailpipe residue on my Focus, so things might be different now.

    The intake turbulence is definitely a well-documented desire and I've seen the gamut of intake treatments from polishing to not polishing to swirl-finishing to impeller installation to "tumble flap" installation. I'm sure it all comes down to what actually happens and how long it keeps happening. Any complex system is only as strong as the weakest link. If the weakest link is robust enough to last, then the system is a winner.
    Even paranoids have enemies.

  12. #10
    DoubleStuf™
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Parkville, MD
    Posts
    3,716

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    This guy claims on his website that his grooves will not fill with carbon.
    Now being tuned by the world class, fastest of the fast, baddest of the bad-ass worker of hokus-pokus on the focus! Give it up for Mr. Randy Robles of FSWerks!!
    Torsen, 4.06,
    Fidanza FW, Luk ProGold clutch, Cosworth IM, Stg 2 Crane cams, Eagle ConRods, 12.5:1cr 88mm Supertech pistons, CFM Adj. cam gears, Cosworth CAI, Draxas & Trubendz exhaust, SVT Brakes, ST200 Rims, Koni Sports, Apex springs, poly FLCA & dog-bone bushings, Progress 22mm RSB, TriAx/F STS, XCal2- *Now with more ProRacer!*

  13. #11
    TEAM Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    345

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    In retrospect, if the mixture velocity is sufficient to keep things moving, it might keep the deposits from happening. It would be fun to see happening, but I guess it's just one of those "try it" situations. You'll have to tell us how it works for you.
    Even paranoids have enemies.

  14. #12
    TEAM Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Osceola, WI
    Posts
    598

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    I can see one major problem with this. The groved area in the head will create hot pockets that will eventualy become the start point for stress cracks. Other than that I like the theory.
    04' F350 6.0 Powerstroke!
    1995 OLDS Delta 88 & 1991 Mustang LX 5.0l - 5spd autox project!

    Greatly missed: 05' ST: 136HP/142TQ
    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2245176

  15. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    84

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    yes it is a good theory but i would worry about the increased heat that the spark plugs showed and as stang 302 mentioned lets say i'm putting in a 1,200 mile drive as some times i do, i fear that the peaks will heat to a point that they act like glow plugs?!?
    4 out of 5 doctors prefer me

  16. #14
    [FJ] Specialist
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Union, MO
    Posts
    8,101

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    It could be a wonderful mod. It could be snake oil. Flame front propogation is so complex that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying one way or the other without seeing the dyno tests myself.
    '04 PZEV ZX3
    Well done, android. The enrichment center reminds you that Android Hell is a real place where you will be sent at the first sign of defiance.

  17. #15
    DoubleStuf™
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Parkville, MD
    Posts
    3,716

    Default Re: Somender Singh grooves- on a duratec?

    The magazine Popular Science wrote a big article on the guy. He did have it dyno-tested with a 5-gas analyzer. It's easy to find the article on Google. Maybe I'll post a link later, but I'm feeling lazy now.
    Now being tuned by the world class, fastest of the fast, baddest of the bad-ass worker of hokus-pokus on the focus! Give it up for Mr. Randy Robles of FSWerks!!
    Torsen, 4.06,
    Fidanza FW, Luk ProGold clutch, Cosworth IM, Stg 2 Crane cams, Eagle ConRods, 12.5:1cr 88mm Supertech pistons, CFM Adj. cam gears, Cosworth CAI, Draxas & Trubendz exhaust, SVT Brakes, ST200 Rims, Koni Sports, Apex springs, poly FLCA & dog-bone bushings, Progress 22mm RSB, TriAx/F STS, XCal2- *Now with more ProRacer!*


 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •