Under steer or Over steer - Focaljet

**Sho** · 02-22-2001, 07:02 PM

In stock form and at the limit does a ZX3 tend to understeer or oversteer? Most vehicles tend to understeer, or plow into a corner. For those that have made suspension mod's please list them and if you are happy with your set up at the limit. I plan to autocross so a little oversteer would be nice allow you to throw the car around the corners.

**Ducman69** · 02-22-2001, 07:50 PM

Like just about any front engine factory car (including RWD cars), the Focus understeers.

However, it does ALLOW you to induce overstear much easier than most which is nice.

[This message has been edited by Ducman69 (edited 02-23-2001).]

**Chris F** · 02-22-2001, 08:42 PM

Once you have the Eibach swaybars on this is changed to slight oversteer at the limit.

Its actually quite nice. Last night going down a cloverleaf freeway onramp I had the car in a full four wheel drift with the tail slightly out. (but not threatening to go away) It felt like the car was just rotating around the turn. Fantastic stuff.

------------------
Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

**Sho** · 02-22-2001, 10:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chris F:
Once you have the Eibach swaybars on this is changed to slight oversteer at the limit.

Its actually quite nice. Last night going down a cloverleaf freeway onramp I had the car in a full four wheel drift with the tail slightly out. (but not threatening to go away) It felt like the car was just rotating around the turn. Fantastic stuff.

Nice to hear the sway bars will solve the understeer problem, do you know what your bar diameter is compared to the stock set up,for the front and rear ? thanks for the post!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

**Chris F** · 02-22-2001, 10:42 PM

Stock is 21mm/21mm F/R.

The Eibach bars are 22mm/25mm F/R. If memory serves me swaybar ridgitity works on an exponential scale so 4mm is a huge increase.

------------------
Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

**P-51** · 02-23-2001, 08:35 AM

Bar stiffness works to the Fourth power! So the differences are huge.

The front 22mm bar is 20% stiffer than stock.

The rear 25mm bar is 100% stiffer than stock!

The Focus does understeer in stock condition, but but I find it to be the most closely balanced car I've ever seen. Even with the stock bars, you can get the rear end to tuch and rotate real nice in an autocross just by modulating the throttle.

[This message has been edited by P-51 (edited 02-23-2001).]

**CTB** · 02-24-2001, 11:32 AM

Only a discussion of over/understeer could possibly have brought me back out of the woodwork.

A couple things here. The stock bars on a US Focus ZX3 are 21mm front, 20mm rear, not 21 rear. (There is a 21mm rear bar in Europe, as well as a 22mm front bar.) So actually, the 25mm Eibach/AEM rear bar is 2.4x stiffer than the stock. P51's number is true for the Euro 21mm rear bar. The front bar is indeed about 21% stiffer than the 21mm US bar.

I've done my usual suspension analysis on the Focus, using the following combinations:

US version, stock
Euro Trend version, stock
Eibach springs, stock bars (US)
Eibach bars, stock springs (US)
Eibach bars and springs

The single biggest change you can make to reduce understeer using the above combinations is to install the Eibach bars. Actually, if you just install the Eibach rear bar, that will put the car the furthest away from understeer. It's up to you to decide how tail-happy you want your car. In order of least understeer to most:

Eibach rear bar only, US suspension otherwise
Eibach springs and bars, F/R, US suspension otherwise
Eibach bars only F/R, US susp otherwise
Eibach springs, US susp otherwise
Euro Trend suspension
US suspension

Note that you can change this dramatically with damping, and now that it seems Koni's are available (I've been in hiding for a long time now...), this will add a new twist to the mix. You can help balance out a car with the dampers, as I found out when my front bar end links came apart on my MR2 autocrosser, and I had to then try and "fix" the car with damper settings to get it home safely (i.e. without spinning it).

Chris F: Having done the same thing you did (tail-out off ramp fun) in my Type R, I can definitely back you up on how much fun it is to do this. Once I get my SVT Focus and slap on an Eibach or Progress rear bar, I hope to have two cars capable of this trick.

I am going to back up P51 on his assessment of the stock Focus - while it does lean and bounce around a lot, it is really a nicely-balanced car that is easily steerable with the throttle mid-corner. I've "backed into" several turns in mine just by chopping the throttle shut during an abrupt turn-in, and then of course catching the car on opposite lock and lots of throttle. Great fun, though not the fastest way!

------------------
******

CTB

**Sho** · 02-25-2001, 01:14 AM

Thanks for your excellent post. I plan to autocross, so maybe I should start out with just a bigger rear bar to induce oversteer.I guess I will have to wait to see just how the SVT handles, but I assume it will be stiffer than stock and probably fairly neutral or towards understeer.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CTB:
Only a discussion of over/understeer could possibly have brought me back out of the woodwork.

A couple things here. The stock bars on a US Focus ZX3 are 21mm front, 20mm rear, not 21 rear. (There is a 21mm rear bar in Europe, as well as a 22mm front bar.) So actually, the 25mm Eibach/AEM rear bar is 2.4x stiffer than the stock. P51's number is true for the Euro 21mm rear bar. The front bar is indeed about 21% stiffer than the 21mm US bar.

I've done my usual suspension analysis on the Focus, using the following combinations:

US version, stock
Euro Trend version, stock
Eibach springs, stock bars (US)
Eibach bars, stock springs (US)
Eibach bars and springs

The single biggest change you can make to reduce understeer using the above combinations is to install the Eibach bars. Actually, if you just install the Eibach rear bar, that will put the car the furthest away from understeer. It's up to you to decide how tail-happy you want your car. In order of least understeer to most:

Eibach rear bar only, US suspension otherwise
Eibach springs and bars, F/R, US suspension otherwise
Eibach bars only F/R, US susp otherwise
Eibach springs, US susp otherwise
Euro Trend suspension
US suspension

Note that you can change this dramatically with damping, and now that it seems Koni's are available (I've been in hiding for a long time now...), this will add a new twist to the mix. You can help balance out a car with the dampers, as I found out when my front bar end links came apart on my MR2 autocrosser, and I had to then try and "fix" the car with damper settings to get it home safely (i.e. without spinning it).

Chris F: Having done the same thing you did (tail-out off ramp fun) in my Type R, I can definitely back you up on how much fun it is to do this. Once I get my SVT Focus and slap on an Eibach or Progress rear bar, I hope to have two cars capable of this trick. I am going to back up P51 on his assessment of the stock Focus - while it does lean and bounce around a lot, it is really a nicely-balanced car that is easily steerable with the throttle mid-corner. I've "backed into" several turns in mine just by chopping the throttle shut during an abrupt turn-in, and then of course catching the car on opposite lock and lots of throttle. Great fun, though not the fastest way!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

**focusownerskid** · 02-25-2001, 01:42 AM

CTB----That had to be the best explanation I have ever heard of the Focus susp. or of any other suspension for that matter.....You need to be a co-moderator with me in suspension...Come on man.....I mean damn!!!

drew
fok

------------------
FocaljetTEAM:NorCal/CD Silver ZX3/5 Speed/KKM Intake/Esslinger Underdrive Pulley/Ground-Control Coilovers/Focal Center Caps/50% Tint,14% Mirror/Euro Grilles/Custom Exhaust/B&M Shifter
Best ET-15.97@88 MPH
'98 SVT Contour,Fully Loaded
It's not mine,it's Y2K's
Catch Me On AIM - focusownerskid
Focaljet Stands Alone!!!!!

**P-51** · 02-25-2001, 09:02 AM

FOK, do you remember CTB from the the old CF? He's gonna be a good addition to this forum, but like me, I don't think he wants the responsibility of moderating.

Chris, I'm probably going to be putting my bars on the car at Mike's place today. We are going to try tackling the front bar. I'll drop you an email just in case you have a chance to drop by.

**focaljet-1** · 02-25-2001, 09:48 AM

I agree with CTB that <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>if you just install the Eibach rear bar, that will put the car the furthest away from understeer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. I drove my car with just the rear bar for over a month (because the front is such a difficult install). I can say I liked the car's handling characteristics better with the rear bar only. Of course I prefer a car with a fair amount of trailbraking oversteer

With the front bar on now it brings the car back closer to the stock dynamic albeit with more control. I will continue to work on the tuning of the other suspension components to dial the car more to my liking.

Some autocrossers have actually been disconnecting the stock front bar and running with the stock rear bar to (sort of) the same effect. Although personally I do not recommend this.

------------------
If you have any questions or comments about Focaljet please email me wrcfan@focaljet.com

**CTB** · 02-25-2001, 10:23 AM

Couple things:

FOK: Thanks for the complement! However, as Rob said, I really cannot commit to be a moderator. I can't make that kind of time commitment.

WRCFan:
I drove a friend's Focus that was stock with just an Eibach rear bar added, and it was an eye opener. I found it to be very controllable, but I wouldn't want to try the moves I was doing in the wet. Or at least not without some rally time under my belt.

My personal opinion is that adding just the 25mm rear bar to the stock Focus is too tail-happy for my tastes. One thing I learned in my autocrossing days is that while initial turn-in is very important, it must be followed with mid-corner stability or controllability during transitions. I remember setting my front bar to soft on my MR2 (rear wasn't adjustable), and I ended up getting into a wicked oscillation in a slalom. Putting the car back to the original settings resulted in a car that I could nearly flat-pedal the slalom in, which was far faster.

Disconnecting the front bar for autocross is an old trick, but I'm with you - I don't recommend it. This puts the car WAY over the edge for tail-happiness (I just entered this combination into my big suspension analysis sheet, and it is far more biased toward oversteer than even the rear-Eibach-only setup), and now it is combined with a horrendous roll angle up front. I'd say it's a much better plan to leave the bars alone and play with tire pressures to change the balance of the car in smaller steps.

------------------
******

CTB

**focusownerskid** · 02-25-2001, 03:53 PM

Rob.....Ya I remember CTB,I always wondered what happened to him...I missed his in depth explantions.....

CTB....Your welcome,you should have many compliments....You seem to have worked hard to know,what you know....And that should be appreciated.....Well if you dont want the responsability as a moderator...Atleast be on more often.....I am sure everyone would benefit from your knowledge......

drew
fok

**Chris F** · 02-25-2001, 04:15 PM

Just an addendum to this... I think the bigger rear bar works best on a lowered car.

By lowering the car you are dialing out some of the effects of going to a bigger bar because you are lowering the roll center and thus decreasing the roll resistance. Right now I am perfectly happy with the level of oversteer I can get out of the car, its very managable.

If I had to do things again I would get better shocks/lower springs THEN add the big bars. Just a quick tip for anyone considering thier next suspension purchase.

------------------
Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

**teamDFL** · 02-25-2001, 08:49 PM

Are the eibach bars adjustable? Non-adjustable bars are a waste of money.

Rich
teamDFL...working on country road package

**CTB** · 02-25-2001, 10:33 PM

FOK: Can I hire you for my own personal PR firm? You need to talk to my boss and get me a raise.

Dd: Yes, the Eibachs are solid. Hollow bars aren't really tricky - you just use a different formula for the diameter. Bascially, you use (D^4-d^4), where D is the outside diam, and d is the inside diam. In other words, you figure out the stiffness of the full diameter bar, then you subtract the stiffness of the bar that is not there, i.e. the air. Of course, if you don't know d, then you're pretty much SOL without a metal thickness measuring device...

Chris F: Actually, lowering a car sorta increases the roll stiffness because the roll moment (i.e. the lever arm that the mass of the car has on the suspension) gets shorter. Essentially, your cg acts on a shorter lever arm to roll the car. Kinda like using the short ratchet instead of the breaker bar. I think.

I'm also glad you mentioned this - that is another factor that will effect balance. Remember that the SVT Focus rides 10mm lower than the stock (and the Euro cars are also lower than the US cars). Yet another factor that must be considered...

TeamDFL: No, the Eibachs are not adjustable. So far, I don't know of any adjustable bars for the Focus. I was hoping the Suspension Techniques bars would be since they usually are (my MR2's ST bars were adjustable, and I loved it). But no dice - the Focus set is non adjustable. If anyone out there knows of adj bars for the Focus, please let me know!

------------------
******

CTB

**Dwainedibbly** · 02-26-2001, 12:32 AM

One question: All of these bars are solid, right? I know the math gets real complicated when you try to figure out the physics of hollow bars.

Brian
'01 ZX3, Eibach springs & bars in garage, waiting on Koni's.

**Chris F** · 02-26-2001, 10:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CTB:

Chris F: Actually, lowering a car sorta increases the roll stiffness because the roll moment (i.e. the lever arm that the mass of the car has on the suspension) gets shorter. Essentially, your cg acts on a shorter lever arm to roll the car. Kinda like using the short ratchet instead of the breaker bar. I think. I'm also glad you mentioned this - that is another factor that will effect balance. Remember that the SVT Focus rides 10mm lower than the stock (and the Euro cars are also lower than the US cars). Yet another factor that must be considered...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see what you are getting at. To me atleast, it feels like the lower roll center is outweighing the effects of the shorter roll moment. Also the stiffer shocks and springs certainly play a big factor in the overall balance of the car.

A fully adjustable rear bar for the ZX3 would be most excellent. In particular at the auto-x alot of the time I would want to crank the stiffness up to levels that would be downright unsafe on the street.

------------------
Chris Feist
Black 00' ZX3 5spd
Mods Dyno Chart

**teamDFL** · 02-26-2001, 07:34 PM

You can always get custom sway bars made that are adjustable. There was a place (stander perfomance I think) that advertized in GRM, and their prices start at about $185 per bar. This is all memory so don't quote me. Plus, from the pictures I have seen, not only are they adjustable, but the have all metal mounts and splined ends just like the big boys. May be a little extreme on a daily, but would most likely offer uncompromising performance.

The other option is, of course, to hack up your Eibaichs and make them adjustable. Cut off the stock ends and weld on a longer plate that has three holes in it. Put the center one in the same location as stock and you will be able to tailor the handling quite well. This is an old stock class autocrossers' trick. Front sway bars are free, and often times a front driver will like to have a softer front end to aid in the rear rotating. Total removal is often too much, so a job like this does the trick. The most difficult part of the whole thing is fabricating adjustable end links for a reasonable cost. Very few cars have the room for adjustment at the bushing, wherein the ears of the cup could be slotted and moved forward or backward depending on the hole selected on the bar. Rod ends can cost a fortune if you're not careful.

Rich
teamDFL...anyone got the racing itch and $7500?

**CTB** · 02-26-2001, 07:55 PM

DFL,
You know, I think I also saw that ad in GRM and wondered what I could get from them. I don't have a welder, so I never thought of the weld trick. Just make sure you have a good welder (as in the person doing the welding, not the equipment). You don't want a front bar letting go mid-corner. A rear bar breaking would be less of a problem, but I've seen what happens when a front bar lets go mid-corner at 100mph. It ain't pretty...I had a friend lose his front bar in Turn 1 at Mid Ohio, and he backed into (and over...) the tire wall at about 95 mph. He had his video cam running in the car. You've never seen snap oversteer quite like this. He had some bruised kidneys, but was otherwise ok once he could blink again...

------------------
******

CTB

**teamDFL** · 02-27-2001, 06:24 PM

A high quality weld is a must. I seem to remember one guy saying that the best way was to hack off the flat end and slot the tube so that the new plate would be a snug fit and give maximum weld area.

I also believe welders are the machines and weldors are the people. Or I could be imagining things, have it backwards or whatever.

Rich
teamDFL...the decision looms

**henrich** · 02-27-2001, 09:25 PM

Okay, not being an autocrossing type person, whose still new to these fun topics. Im curious, what do you mean by a little oversteer, or a little understeer? My knowledge is very rudimentary, that is understeer means your plowing, and oversteer means your back end has come loose. Where is the little come in? A little oversteer means your more likely to lose the back ? And what defines the center point "perfect steer" ?

And what would the characteristics of that be.. Okay enough of the troublesome whining, anyone? Thanks!

------------------
2k1 Yellow ZX3
18x7.5 ASA JS5's, 215/35ZR18 Parada's
Ice-Man Intake, Thermal R&D Exhaust

**teamDFL** · 02-28-2001, 06:37 PM

Understeer is when the front tires loose traction first, and oversteer is when the rears break first. So, you were right. All stock street cars understeer, because it keeps you looking where you are going, rather than where you have been. Perfect is called neutral, and it is when all four wheels slowly and gradually give up at the same time. It is a very nice feeling.
Now, saying that your car understeers or oversteers is problematic. First it depends on the driver. What are the inputs? Many semi-experienced drivers are able to reduce understeer without knowing exactly what they are doing. So, put them in a car with less understeer and they will spin unless they adapt their technique. Is this an oversteering car? Not really.
Second problem is when does the characteristic occur? What is often called low speed understeer is prevalant in almost all vehicles. Why? Because a low speed corner typically is one involving a tight angle. In a tight turn, the front wheels are angled more, forcing them to do more work. High speed oversteer is the opposite, and works for the same reasons, just in reverse.
Finally, characterizing a car as understeering or oversteering is difficult because many people are uncomfortable with their rear tires actually working hard. They call this generating of force on the rear tires oversteer. It is not.
When all else fails remember this: understeer is when you nose into the wall, oversteer is when you back into the wall.

Rich
teamDFL...generating mental slip angles

**CTB** · 02-28-2001, 06:48 PM

DFL,
Nice post - your points about driving style, adapting to a car, etc., are very valid. Techniques that work in a FWD car may not work in a mid-engine RWD car, and when that FWD driver spins the mid engine car, he may say the car oversteered. Perhaps, perhaps not. A lot of drivers (namely me back when I was first getting into autocrossing) will mis-identify too much corner entry speed as "understeer." I learned that the problem was not my car, it was the nut that connected the seat to the steering wheel. I was trying to enter the corner way too hot and getting understeer. That wasn't the car's fault - I had exceeded the available grip on the front tires.

So yes - when evaluating a car, setup, etc., definitely take DFL's comments to heart.

02-22-2001, 07:02 PM	#1
Sho TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Posts: 215	Under steer or Over steer In stock form and at the limit does a ZX3 tend to understeer or oversteer? Most vehicles tend to understeer, or plow into a corner. For those that have made suspension mod's please list them and if you are happy with your set up at the limit. I plan to autocross so a little oversteer would be nice allow you to throw the car around the corners.

02-22-2001, 07:50 PM	#2
Ducman69 I pretend to know everything. Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: van by the river Posts: 18,745	Re: Under steer or Over steer Like just about any front engine factory car (including RWD cars), the Focus understeers. However, it does ALLOW you to induce overstear much easier than most which is nice. [This message has been edited by Ducman69 (edited 02-23-2001).]

02-22-2001, 08:42 PM	#3
Chris F Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,957	Re: Under steer or Over steer Once you have the Eibach swaybars on this is changed to slight oversteer at the limit. Its actually quite nice. Last night going down a cloverleaf freeway onramp I had the car in a full four wheel drift with the tail slightly out. (but not threatening to go away) It felt like the car was just rotating around the turn. Fantastic stuff. ------------------ Chris Feist Black 00' ZX3 5spd Mods Dyno Chart

02-22-2001, 10:09 PM	#4
Sho TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Posts: 215	Re: Under steer or Over steer <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris F: Once you have the Eibach swaybars on this is changed to slight oversteer at the limit. Its actually quite nice. Last night going down a cloverleaf freeway onramp I had the car in a full four wheel drift with the tail slightly out. (but not threatening to go away) It felt like the car was just rotating around the turn. Fantastic stuff. Nice to hear the sway bars will solve the understeer problem, do you know what your bar diameter is compared to the stock set up,for the front and rear ? thanks for the post! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

02-22-2001, 10:42 PM	#5
Chris F Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,957	Re: Under steer or Over steer Stock is 21mm/21mm F/R. The Eibach bars are 22mm/25mm F/R. If memory serves me swaybar ridgitity works on an exponential scale so 4mm is a huge increase. ------------------ Chris Feist Black 00' ZX3 5spd Mods Dyno Chart

02-23-2001, 08:35 AM	#6
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 14,940	Re: Under steer or Over steer Bar stiffness works to the Fourth power! So the differences are huge. The front 22mm bar is 20% stiffer than stock. The rear 25mm bar is 100% stiffer than stock! The Focus does understeer in stock condition, but but I find it to be the most closely balanced car I've ever seen. Even with the stock bars, you can get the rear end to tuch and rotate real nice in an autocross just by modulating the throttle. [This message has been edited by P-51 (edited 02-23-2001).]

02-24-2001, 11:32 AM	#7
CTB TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 585	Re: Under steer or Over steer Only a discussion of over/understeer could possibly have brought me back out of the woodwork. A couple things here. The stock bars on a US Focus ZX3 are 21mm front, 20mm rear, not 21 rear. (There is a 21mm rear bar in Europe, as well as a 22mm front bar.) So actually, the 25mm Eibach/AEM rear bar is 2.4x stiffer than the stock. P51's number is true for the Euro 21mm rear bar. The front bar is indeed about 21% stiffer than the 21mm US bar. I've done my usual suspension analysis on the Focus, using the following combinations: US version, stock Euro Trend version, stock Eibach springs, stock bars (US) Eibach bars, stock springs (US) Eibach bars and springs The single biggest change you can make to reduce understeer using the above combinations is to install the Eibach bars. Actually, if you just install the Eibach rear bar, that will put the car the furthest away from understeer. It's up to you to decide how tail-happy you want your car. In order of least understeer to most: Eibach rear bar only, US suspension otherwise Eibach springs and bars, F/R, US suspension otherwise Eibach bars only F/R, US susp otherwise Eibach springs, US susp otherwise Euro Trend suspension US suspension Note that you can change this dramatically with damping, and now that it seems Koni's are available (I've been in hiding for a long time now...), this will add a new twist to the mix. You can help balance out a car with the dampers, as I found out when my front bar end links came apart on my MR2 autocrosser, and I had to then try and "fix" the car with damper settings to get it home safely (i.e. without spinning it). Chris F: Having done the same thing you did (tail-out off ramp fun) in my Type R, I can definitely back you up on how much fun it is to do this. Once I get my SVT Focus and slap on an Eibach or Progress rear bar, I hope to have two cars capable of this trick. I am going to back up P51 on his assessment of the stock Focus - while it does lean and bounce around a lot, it is really a nicely-balanced car that is easily steerable with the throttle mid-corner. I've "backed into" several turns in mine just by chopping the throttle shut during an abrupt turn-in, and then of course catching the car on opposite lock and lots of throttle. Great fun, though not the fastest way! ------------------ ****** CTB

02-25-2001, 01:14 AM	#8
Sho TEAM Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Posts: 215	Re: Under steer or Over steer Thanks for your excellent post. I plan to autocross, so maybe I should start out with just a bigger rear bar to induce oversteer.I guess I will have to wait to see just how the SVT handles, but I assume it will be stiffer than stock and probably fairly neutral or towards understeer. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CTB: Only a discussion of over/understeer could possibly have brought me back out of the woodwork. A couple things here. The stock bars on a US Focus ZX3 are 21mm front, 20mm rear, not 21 rear. (There is a 21mm rear bar in Europe, as well as a 22mm front bar.) So actually, the 25mm Eibach/AEM rear bar is 2.4x stiffer than the stock. P51's number is true for the Euro 21mm rear bar. The front bar is indeed about 21% stiffer than the 21mm US bar. I've done my usual suspension analysis on the Focus, using the following combinations: US version, stock Euro Trend version, stock Eibach springs, stock bars (US) Eibach bars, stock springs (US) Eibach bars and springs The single biggest change you can make to reduce understeer using the above combinations is to install the Eibach bars. Actually, if you just install the Eibach rear bar, that will put the car the furthest away from understeer. It's up to you to decide how tail-happy you want your car. In order of least understeer to most: Eibach rear bar only, US suspension otherwise Eibach springs and bars, F/R, US suspension otherwise Eibach bars only F/R, US susp otherwise Eibach springs, US susp otherwise Euro Trend suspension US suspension Note that you can change this dramatically with damping, and now that it seems Koni's are available (I've been in hiding for a long time now...), this will add a new twist to the mix. You can help balance out a car with the dampers, as I found out when my front bar end links came apart on my MR2 autocrosser, and I had to then try and "fix" the car with damper settings to get it home safely (i.e. without spinning it). Chris F: Having done the same thing you did (tail-out off ramp fun) in my Type R, I can definitely back you up on how much fun it is to do this. Once I get my SVT Focus and slap on an Eibach or Progress rear bar, I hope to have two cars capable of this trick. I am going to back up P51 on his assessment of the stock Focus - while it does lean and bounce around a lot, it is really a nicely-balanced car that is easily steerable with the throttle mid-corner. I've "backed into" several turns in mine just by chopping the throttle shut during an abrupt turn-in, and then of course catching the car on opposite lock and lots of throttle. Great fun, though not the fastest way! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

02-25-2001, 01:42 AM	#9
focusownerskid Administrator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroe, MI Posts: 15,407	Re: Under steer or Over steer CTB----That had to be the best explanation I have ever heard of the Focus susp. or of any other suspension for that matter.....You need to be a co-moderator with me in suspension...Come on man.....I mean damn!!! drew fok ------------------ FocaljetTEAM:NorCal/CD Silver ZX3/5 Speed/KKM Intake/Esslinger Underdrive Pulley/Ground-Control Coilovers/Focal Center Caps/50% Tint,14% Mirror/Euro Grilles/Custom Exhaust/B&M Shifter Best ET-15.97@88 MPH '98 SVT Contour,Fully Loaded It's not mine,it's Y2K's Catch Me On AIM - focusownerskid Focaljet Stands Alone!!!!!

02-25-2001, 09:02 AM	#10
P-51 [FJ] Addict Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brighton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 14,940	Re: Under steer or Over steer FOK, do you remember CTB from the the old CF? He's gonna be a good addition to this forum, but like me, I don't think he wants the responsibility of moderating. Chris, I'm probably going to be putting my bars on the car at Mike's place today. We are going to try tackling the front bar. I'll drop you an email just in case you have a chance to drop by.

02-25-2001, 09:48 AM	#11
focaljet-1 Small Car Czar Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: On the RotorMedia helipad Posts: 29,076	Re: Under steer or Over steer I agree with CTB that <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if you just install the Eibach rear bar, that will put the car the furthest away from understeer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is true. I drove my car with just the rear bar for over a month (because the front is such a difficult install). I can say I liked the car's handling characteristics better with the rear bar only. Of course I prefer a car with a fair amount of trailbraking oversteer With the front bar on now it brings the car back closer to the stock dynamic albeit with more control. I will continue to work on the tuning of the other suspension components to dial the car more to my liking. Some autocrossers have actually been disconnecting the stock front bar and running with the stock rear bar to (sort of) the same effect. Although personally I do not recommend this. ------------------ If you have any questions or comments about Focaljet please email me wrcfan@focaljet.com

02-25-2001, 10:23 AM	#12
CTB TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 585	Re: Under steer or Over steer Couple things: FOK: Thanks for the complement! However, as Rob said, I really cannot commit to be a moderator. I can't make that kind of time commitment. WRCFan: I drove a friend's Focus that was stock with just an Eibach rear bar added, and it was an eye opener. I found it to be very controllable, but I wouldn't want to try the moves I was doing in the wet. Or at least not without some rally time under my belt. My personal opinion is that adding just the 25mm rear bar to the stock Focus is too tail-happy for my tastes. One thing I learned in my autocrossing days is that while initial turn-in is very important, it must be followed with mid-corner stability or controllability during transitions. I remember setting my front bar to soft on my MR2 (rear wasn't adjustable), and I ended up getting into a wicked oscillation in a slalom. Putting the car back to the original settings resulted in a car that I could nearly flat-pedal the slalom in, which was far faster. Disconnecting the front bar for autocross is an old trick, but I'm with you - I don't recommend it. This puts the car WAY over the edge for tail-happiness (I just entered this combination into my big suspension analysis sheet, and it is far more biased toward oversteer than even the rear-Eibach-only setup), and now it is combined with a horrendous roll angle up front. I'd say it's a much better plan to leave the bars alone and play with tire pressures to change the balance of the car in smaller steps. ------------------ ****** CTB

02-25-2001, 03:53 PM	#13
focusownerskid Administrator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroe, MI Posts: 15,407	Re: Under steer or Over steer Rob.....Ya I remember CTB,I always wondered what happened to him...I missed his in depth explantions..... CTB....Your welcome,you should have many compliments....You seem to have worked hard to know,what you know....And that should be appreciated.....Well if you dont want the responsability as a moderator...Atleast be on more often.....I am sure everyone would benefit from your knowledge...... drew fok

02-25-2001, 04:15 PM	#14
Chris F Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,957	Re: Under steer or Over steer Just an addendum to this... I think the bigger rear bar works best on a lowered car. By lowering the car you are dialing out some of the effects of going to a bigger bar because you are lowering the roll center and thus decreasing the roll resistance. Right now I am perfectly happy with the level of oversteer I can get out of the car, its very managable. If I had to do things again I would get better shocks/lower springs THEN add the big bars. Just a quick tip for anyone considering thier next suspension purchase. ------------------ Chris Feist Black 00' ZX3 5spd Mods Dyno Chart

02-25-2001, 08:49 PM	#15
teamDFL Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Apex, NC, USA Posts: 4,629	Re: Under steer or Over steer Are the eibach bars adjustable? Non-adjustable bars are a waste of money. Rich teamDFL...working on country road package

02-25-2001, 10:33 PM	#16
CTB TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 585	Re: Under steer or Over steer FOK: Can I hire you for my own personal PR firm? You need to talk to my boss and get me a raise. Dd: Yes, the Eibachs are solid. Hollow bars aren't really tricky - you just use a different formula for the diameter. Bascially, you use (D^4-d^4), where D is the outside diam, and d is the inside diam. In other words, you figure out the stiffness of the full diameter bar, then you subtract the stiffness of the bar that is not there, i.e. the air. Of course, if you don't know d, then you're pretty much SOL without a metal thickness measuring device... Chris F: Actually, lowering a car sorta increases the roll stiffness because the roll moment (i.e. the lever arm that the mass of the car has on the suspension) gets shorter. Essentially, your cg acts on a shorter lever arm to roll the car. Kinda like using the short ratchet instead of the breaker bar. I think. I'm also glad you mentioned this - that is another factor that will effect balance. Remember that the SVT Focus rides 10mm lower than the stock (and the Euro cars are also lower than the US cars). Yet another factor that must be considered... TeamDFL: No, the Eibachs are not adjustable. So far, I don't know of any adjustable bars for the Focus. I was hoping the Suspension Techniques bars would be since they usually are (my MR2's ST bars were adjustable, and I loved it). But no dice - the Focus set is non adjustable. If anyone out there knows of adj bars for the Focus, please let me know! ------------------ ****** CTB

02-26-2001, 12:32 AM	#17
Dwainedibbly TEAM Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 277	Re: Under steer or Over steer One question: All of these bars are solid, right? I know the math gets real complicated when you try to figure out the physics of hollow bars. Brian '01 ZX3, Eibach springs & bars in garage, waiting on Koni's.

02-26-2001, 10:10 AM	#18
Chris F Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,957	Re: Under steer or Over steer <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CTB: Chris F: Actually, lowering a car sorta increases the roll stiffness because the roll moment (i.e. the lever arm that the mass of the car has on the suspension) gets shorter. Essentially, your cg acts on a shorter lever arm to roll the car. Kinda like using the short ratchet instead of the breaker bar. I think. I'm also glad you mentioned this - that is another factor that will effect balance. Remember that the SVT Focus rides 10mm lower than the stock (and the Euro cars are also lower than the US cars). Yet another factor that must be considered... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can see what you are getting at. To me atleast, it feels like the lower roll center is outweighing the effects of the shorter roll moment. Also the stiffer shocks and springs certainly play a big factor in the overall balance of the car. A fully adjustable rear bar for the ZX3 would be most excellent. In particular at the auto-x alot of the time I would want to crank the stiffness up to levels that would be downright unsafe on the street. ------------------ Chris Feist Black 00' ZX3 5spd Mods Dyno Chart

02-26-2001, 07:34 PM	#19
teamDFL Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Apex, NC, USA Posts: 4,629	Re: Under steer or Over steer You can always get custom sway bars made that are adjustable. There was a place (stander perfomance I think) that advertized in GRM, and their prices start at about $185 per bar. This is all memory so don't quote me. Plus, from the pictures I have seen, not only are they adjustable, but the have all metal mounts and splined ends just like the big boys. May be a little extreme on a daily, but would most likely offer uncompromising performance. The other option is, of course, to hack up your Eibaichs and make them adjustable. Cut off the stock ends and weld on a longer plate that has three holes in it. Put the center one in the same location as stock and you will be able to tailor the handling quite well. This is an old stock class autocrossers' trick. Front sway bars are free, and often times a front driver will like to have a softer front end to aid in the rear rotating. Total removal is often too much, so a job like this does the trick. The most difficult part of the whole thing is fabricating adjustable end links for a reasonable cost. Very few cars have the room for adjustment at the bushing, wherein the ears of the cup could be slotted and moved forward or backward depending on the hole selected on the bar. Rod ends can cost a fortune if you're not careful. Rich teamDFL...anyone got the racing itch and $7500?

02-26-2001, 07:55 PM	#20
CTB TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 585	Re: Under steer or Over steer DFL, You know, I think I also saw that ad in GRM and wondered what I could get from them. I don't have a welder, so I never thought of the weld trick. Just make sure you have a good welder (as in the person doing the welding, not the equipment). You don't want a front bar letting go mid-corner. A rear bar breaking would be less of a problem, but I've seen what happens when a front bar lets go mid-corner at 100mph. It ain't pretty...I had a friend lose his front bar in Turn 1 at Mid Ohio, and he backed into (and over...) the tire wall at about 95 mph. He had his video cam running in the car. You've never seen snap oversteer quite like this. He had some bruised kidneys, but was otherwise ok once he could blink again... ------------------ ****** CTB

02-27-2001, 06:24 PM	#21
teamDFL Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Apex, NC, USA Posts: 4,629	Re: Under steer or Over steer A high quality weld is a must. I seem to remember one guy saying that the best way was to hack off the flat end and slot the tube so that the new plate would be a snug fit and give maximum weld area. I also believe welders are the machines and weldors are the people. Or I could be imagining things, have it backwards or whatever. Rich teamDFL...the decision looms

02-27-2001, 09:25 PM	#22
henrich TEAM Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: LA, CA Posts: 169	Re: Under steer or Over steer Okay, not being an autocrossing type person, whose still new to these fun topics. Im curious, what do you mean by a little oversteer, or a little understeer? My knowledge is very rudimentary, that is understeer means your plowing, and oversteer means your back end has come loose. Where is the little come in? A little oversteer means your more likely to lose the back ? And what defines the center point "perfect steer" ? And what would the characteristics of that be.. Okay enough of the troublesome whining, anyone? Thanks! ------------------ 2k1 Yellow ZX3 18x7.5 ASA JS5's, 215/35ZR18 Parada's Ice-Man Intake, Thermal R&D Exhaust

02-28-2001, 06:37 PM	#23
teamDFL Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Apex, NC, USA Posts: 4,629	Re: Under steer or Over steer Understeer is when the front tires loose traction first, and oversteer is when the rears break first. So, you were right. All stock street cars understeer, because it keeps you looking where you are going, rather than where you have been. Perfect is called neutral, and it is when all four wheels slowly and gradually give up at the same time. It is a very nice feeling. Now, saying that your car understeers or oversteers is problematic. First it depends on the driver. What are the inputs? Many semi-experienced drivers are able to reduce understeer without knowing exactly what they are doing. So, put them in a car with less understeer and they will spin unless they adapt their technique. Is this an oversteering car? Not really. Second problem is when does the characteristic occur? What is often called low speed understeer is prevalant in almost all vehicles. Why? Because a low speed corner typically is one involving a tight angle. In a tight turn, the front wheels are angled more, forcing them to do more work. High speed oversteer is the opposite, and works for the same reasons, just in reverse. Finally, characterizing a car as understeering or oversteering is difficult because many people are uncomfortable with their rear tires actually working hard. They call this generating of force on the rear tires oversteer. It is not. When all else fails remember this: understeer is when you nose into the wall, oversteer is when you back into the wall. Rich teamDFL...generating mental slip angles

02-28-2001, 06:48 PM	#24
CTB TEAM Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 585	Re: Under steer or Over steer DFL, Nice post - your points about driving style, adapting to a car, etc., are very valid. Techniques that work in a FWD car may not work in a mid-engine RWD car, and when that FWD driver spins the mid engine car, he may say the car oversteered. Perhaps, perhaps not. A lot of drivers (namely me back when I was first getting into autocrossing) will mis-identify too much corner entry speed as "understeer." I learned that the problem was not my car, it was the nut that connected the seat to the steering wheel. I was trying to enter the corner way too hot and getting understeer. That wasn't the car's fault - I had exceeded the available grip on the front tires. So yes - when evaluating a car, setup, etc., definitely take DFL's comments to heart.