Public Service Announcement - Re: Coilovers ("budget setups," in particular)

[Stolle]

dfocusin's bilstiens at autox and back roads and paul haskews car stock H&R's on back roads.



HTP loved them on their car for autox. they sold them to me.

until spring when im home. i cant tell you personally how they are on the track.

[ClintB1321]

and the difference in hadling charateristics between the off the shelf spings on the H&R's and mine are significant because i both myself

[Stolle]

i know that. we're talking off the shelf coilovers.

[svo_dave]

Originally Posted by Stolle

to SVOdave...

i have NO clue what your talking about with an orange bracket....

I have about about 100 pics off how the orange brackets in the rear don't fit on the car if you want to see them, including measurements graphed in, I figured I'd post some basic pics of the car and the orange brackets, maybe refresh your memory.

[OmniFocus]

I wouldn't have even tried to install those brackets, those don't look like anything for a Focus.

Interesting thread though... I'll keep my two cents to myself.

[Stolle]

oh. throw those brackets away. mine didnt come with those...

take the 13mm nut or w/e it is off the top assembly and use the 2 black rubber isolators one and top and on on the bottom

[svo_dave]

Originally Posted by Stolle

oh. throw those brackets away. mine didnt come with those...

take the 13mm nut or w/e it is off the top assembly and use the 2 black rubber isolators one and top and on on the bottom

Thats what I did, but the one I received had 17mm nut, the rubber black bushing things have a little smaller part that sort of fits and stock hole and mine has a metal cylinder that goes threw them, the only reason I tried installing with orange bracket on after I saw it didn't fit right was to get pics to send to k sport.

[Stolle]

oh. well the ones i received from HTP fit like a glove...

maybe they fixed their error in the rear shocks....idk

[ClintB1321]

Originally Posted by Stolle

i know that. we're talking off the shelf coilovers.

well the valving IS off the shelf, and the fact i have different spring is a neccesity that i had to do when i purchased my FS camber plates the same time i got the coilovers. So its a off the self option from FS

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Stolle

funny. i posted that i bought the ksports for the pillowball mounts and adjustability and you start this huge thread just to bash them? call it what you want. your bashing them. just in a 2 faced way

Actually, I started this thread to spread information.

I noticed that the entire subject was removed from your thread (which is fine, since it was a Rigz thread and not necessarily a good place to have a discussion about this) and decided that it would be good to get the information out there.

Say what you want, but the only reason this thread turned into what some of you perceive as a "Ksport bash-fest" is because somebody from Ksport showed up to say that he doesn't believe in the validity of the information in one of the links I posted (and even KsportBranden concedes that the tone of the first post isn't entirely "anti-Ksport"). The conversation naturally shifted to Ksport and away from the other brands in the initial post and low and behold, we have the thread you see here today.

Originally Posted by Stolle

i street drive and track the car once in a while. once a month in the summer.

i have played with my ksports.

i LOVE them. not sure but im pretty sure they changed things up since all this i read about them not feeling like the adjust and such. but they do. im no pro at setting up my damper rates...but when i set them full hard and full soft. there was a HUGE difference.

Of course there is. I never said that you wouldn't feel a difference between full hard and full soft based on what's in those shock dynos. The graphs clearly show a difference in rebound damping rates on each of the tested dampers when adjusted from full hard to full soft.

As far as the compression damping goes though, there is virtually no change. Do I need to explain to you the difference between the two?

Furthermore, each one of the dampers tested showed a vastly different placement on the graph, meaning that if you set them all to the same "level" of adjustment, none of them are really set to the same valving/damper curve.

None of that means that you won't feel a difference.

Originally Posted by Stolle

my only complaint. i need to cut the foam rear spring isolators so they fit a flat ground sping since the rears have a flat ground and dont fit the stock isolators since the stock springs just end and arnt ground flat.

the end result. a little metal clunking the rears from the springs moving on metal to metal contact.

So you're saying that perhaps they could've designed it differently so that it actually fits the car without having to modify things??

Originally Posted by Stolle

the ksports just feel solid. say what you want. im very impressed by them for STREET DRIVING. not omg f1 track days.

get over yourselfs people. to each his own.

end result. id buy ksports again.

ps. to the person who said Tein is a budget brand...your retarded. sry.

His retarded?? MY retarded?? Myselfs retarded??

If you check into shock dyno plots for dampers in most of Tein's line-up, you'll likely find similar issues regarding grossly mismatched valving and and quality control issues. I didn't exactly pull that assertion out of my a**.

Originally Posted by Stolle

someones pissed off cause these companies you hate are doing so well at the track without posting omg dyno results. if the cars fast. its fast. we dont need to see what the dampers are doing at whatever rate...if you wanna do that. go start an f1 team and datalog your suspension.

you would prolly hate on someone with an ebay intake tube and genuine K&N filter on the end that dynoed higher then you. BUT OMFG ITS NOT AEM PIPING. its ebay with a aem/k&N filter.

if it makes power. it makes power.

you cant seem to let go the fact the these shock dyno results from 2 years ago and are somehow still valid to this day. even if ksport themselves have said they have changed things up but cant tell you the whole details.

I'm not letting it go because I've yet to see anything posted to refute the validity of Tri-Point's shock dyno results, other than citations of podium finishes by a few Ksport-equipped racecars/drivers. If KsportBranden posts up some shock dyno plots that at least call into question the validity of graphs that Tri-Point posted, I'll change my tune.

Originally Posted by Stolle

ok well the OP came off like a real dick head posting the way did...

that was the most heated smiley argurment ive seen since joining FJ in 06.

i understand your guys uber idealist ways with suspension. im the same way with my engine performance. i hear you totally on the turbo maps.

maybe just word things different. there was wayyyy too much calling out on ksport it seems.

I'm sorry you feel the need to resort to name-calling. Again, I didn't start this thread to drag Ksport's name into the mud. I was genuinely trying to help the community by providing a reminder that for the most part you truly do get what you pay for and that not all coilover setups are created equal, by any stretch of the imagination.

[syntheticGT]

Originally Posted by KsportBranden

Thank you sir, I appreciate you guys allowing me to come in and at least state our side of things.

Maybe we'll see some of you guys around at SEMA.

I will stop by to meet ya this year.

[SaucyMuffin]

I'm just going to call you Nintendo because I really don't feel like typing out that L with all those i's...

This thread is REALLY interesting to me because I just picked up a set of Ksport Kontrol Pro coilovers with 10k miles on them from a buddy. I haven't taken them to the track but just from driving on the road daily with them set to nearly full stiffness I can't really say that I dislike them. Now I haven't been able to really get on them because my tires are too large I need to shrink down to some low pro 40s instead of 45s. But at anyrate they arn't terrible at all.

Now the reason I'm posting in here really is to say that don't you think it could be possible that people start bashing companies that make a similar product at a cheaper cost to the customer that still performs at the same level? Let me put it this way, say Bilstein took some Ksport Kontrol Pros and tested them and what not and said, "These didn't dyno out as well as ours, all Ksport Kontrol Pros are horrible no one ever buy them." Alright thats fine and dandy one full set of Kontrol Pros didn't function correctly or dyno decently or whatever, but whos to say that they didn't get a set that happened to slip by QC? I'm asuming that Ksport is a small company thats just breaking into the scene. Is it not also possible that Ksport has changed its valving design from what it was two years ago? Its entirly possible that the suspension that guy got to test could have been from the first batch ever made and just sat on the shelf for awhile. With out a serial number listed and without knowing what batch and what not those came from they could very well have come from a crap batch. I'm not going to say that guy is a liar he says he did the test, he says he did it with brand new Kontrol Pros, but honestly ever hear the saying, "Pics or shens?" meaning I demand pictures of it or I'm calling shenanigans. I'm not saying he didn't do it but I'm not saying that he did do it, he says he did and doesn't show proof that they were new or that they were even Kontrol Pros. I'm really just trying to say that this could be a case of a dealer or manufacturer, I don't know what he is, he could have seen that Ksport was making the same quality product at a much cheaper price to the customer and might even have fudged the results all of these things are a possiblitly here Nintendo.

Now I do think that you are correct in asking for Ksport to show what they're dyno results are as I am highly interested in them aswell.

Now on a side note does it not also show that Ksport cares about its product? Does it not show that they atleast want to make their product better or that they are not sold short. I'm almost positive that in the Performance Car part market a name and results go ALONG way. But all those companies have to start somewhere do you think that Bilstien and all of them just started up one day and start churning out award winning super awesome really great suspension? NO. Ksport can't do that, and neither could have any of those big name companies they all had to start where Ksport and other "budget" brands that were listed are. I read this whole thread and not once did I see you acutally go out of way and acknowledge that Ksport was out here on probably a little known forum for a car that hardly anyone sees the potential in DEFENDING its product. Now if we had the internet here when Bilstein started or some of those other companies do you not think we would have seen test results and whatnot from other people saying that those where junk and what have you?

Yeah Kontrol Pro's might not be the best thing for Road courses but Ksports seeing results with their drivers and racers. Did you personally test out the Kontrol Pros on your focus at a road course or are you just going by what one man with a graph and no pictures to back up his testing process or that he even used the dampers he said he tested. Word of mouth has a good way of ruining alot of things, and before you jump into the boat of Ksport bashing, (which you are bashing Ksport now that they have shown up here) don't you think you should wait and see what Ksports dyno results are? The man said they are willing to test them, show the proof and that they are building a NEW dyno to test them on. Which is another variable I wont get into.

To make a long story short, don't sell a brand new company short just because you heard some stuff and one guy pointed at a graph and said hey heres the proof. You need to gather information from both sides, and now that we have seen that Ksport is willing step up and prove what their product can do I say lets sit back, all take a long deep breath, calm down and be civil about it. Like I said before if that was a graph stating the Bilstein or some other big name company was junk do you think that they would come to our neck of the woods to back up their claims? I highly doubt it.

I'm not trying to be a doucher here I just read this thread and to me it seemed like you and maybe one or two others were lashing out at Ksport and I felt as though you all need to calm down about it. This isn't FF I respect your choice to to procure information as to weather or not Ksport is a viable option for track only uses.

[ClintB1321]

im asking about ksport's products not as a basher.... if they're stuff is a good track option i would consider it for myself, but thats why im asking all the questions im asking....for information...

[bustonit]

I have been lightly following K-Sport from Focus land. After reading this post, I am wondering if there is older product laying around for sale (off the shelf stuff) or has it all been recalled and updated (anodizing, etc.)?

[svo_dave]

(edit) disregard for now

[ClintB1321]

^good to see that they are improving the design for better fitment, kudos

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by SaucyMuffin

I'm just going to call you Nintendo because I really don't feel like typing out that L with all those i's...

This thread is REALLY interesting to me because I just picked up a set of Ksport Kontrol Pro coilovers with 10k miles on them from a buddy. I haven't taken them to the track but just from driving on the road daily with them set to nearly full stiffness I can't really say that I dislike them. Now I haven't been able to really get on them because my tires are too large I need to shrink down to some low pro 40s instead of 45s. But at anyrate they arn't terrible at all.

Now the reason I'm posting in here really is to say that don't you think it could be possible that people start bashing companies that make a similar product at a cheaper cost to the customer that still performs at the same level? Let me put it this way, say Bilstein took some Ksport Kontrol Pros and tested them and what not and said, "These didn't dyno out as well as ours, all Ksport Kontrol Pros are horrible no one ever buy them." Alright thats fine and dandy one full set of Kontrol Pros didn't function correctly or dyno decently or whatever, but whos to say that they didn't get a set that happened to slip by QC?

If that were the case, I think it'd be highly unlikely that all four of the dampers in a single set would be lacking compression damping adjustability when they are supposed to have it. Is it a possibility? Sure, but I don't think that it's likely...

Also, we're not talking about another damper company when we're talking about Tri-Point. We're talking about a vendor who could feasibly sell whatever products it wants to sell to its customers...

Originally Posted by SaucyMuffin

I'm asuming that Ksport is a small company thats just breaking into the scene. Is it not also possible that Ksport has changed its valving design from what it was two years ago? Its entirly possible that the suspension that guy got to test could have been from the first batch ever made and just sat on the shelf for awhile. With out a serial number listed and without knowing what batch and what not those came from they could very well have come from a crap batch. I'm not going to say that guy is a liar he says he did the test, he says he did it with brand new Kontrol Pros, but honestly ever hear the saying, "Pics or shens?" meaning I demand pictures of it or I'm calling shenanigans. I'm not saying he didn't do it but I'm not saying that he did do it, he says he did and doesn't show proof that they were new or that they were even Kontrol Pros.

Actually, if you read my previous posts, you'll see that I acknowledge that possibility myself. Having had personal communication with Jeff Wong at Tri-Point about this, I'm still inclined to believe that what he posted was what he said it was: a shock dyno plot from a brand new out-of-the-box Kontrol Pro Damper set for a 240SX that was provided by a Tri-Point customer who wanted to know what he had just bought (since Ksport doesn't provide shock dynos for their Kontrol Pro dampers when you buy them).

Originally Posted by SaucyMuffin

I'm really just trying to say that this could be a case of a dealer or manufacturer, I don't know what he is, he could have seen that Ksport was making the same quality product at a much cheaper price to the customer and might even have fudged the results all of these things are a possiblitly here Nintendo.

Now I do think that you are correct in asking for Ksport to show what they're dyno results are as I am highly interested in them aswell.

Now on a side note does it not also show that Ksport cares about its product? Does it not show that they atleast want to make their product better or that they are not sold short. I'm almost positive that in the Performance Car part market a name and results go ALONG way. But all those companies have to start somewhere do you think that Bilstien and all of them just started up one day and start churning out award winning super awesome really great suspension? NO.

As I said above, if Tri-Point did as you suggest and saw "that Ksport was making the same quality product at a much cheaper price to the customer," then I'm pretty sure they could have very easily become a vendor and gotten in on the action. There would really be no need (nor motive) to "bash the competition."

Originally Posted by SaucyMuffin

Ksport can't do that, and neither could have any of those big name companies they all had to start where Ksport and other "budget" brands that were listed are. I read this whole thread and not once did I see you acutally go out of way and acknowledge that Ksport was out here on probably a little known forum for a car that hardly anyone sees the potential in DEFENDING its product. Now if we had the internet here when Bilstein started or some of those other companies do you not think we would have seen test results and whatnot from other people saying that those where junk and what have you?

Well, considering that Bilstein got into suspension production before my 90 year-old grandfather was in grammar school, I think it's safe to say there definitely wasn't anything akin to the internet around...

Furthermore, seeing as how Bilstein practically invented (or at the very least was the first company to mass produce) gas-charged automotive dampers, it's pretty difficult to draw any parallel to how Ksport seems to be doing things...

If you look into any of the "quality" damper companies I've listed, you'll find that they are well-established firms that not only make automotive dampers (and are the primary suppliers for many many OE applications) but they also produce for and supply to all sorts of off-highway, marine, military, industrial, and rail equipment/vehicle manufacturers.

It's true that comparing them to a niche automotive "suspension tuning" company like Ksport (whose web developers, at least, don't seem to understand the difference between something that lessens oscillations and something that makes things wet) isn't really even fair, which is actually the whole point of this thread!

Originally Posted by SaucyMuffin

Yeah Kontrol Pro's might not be the best thing for Road courses but Ksports seeing results with their drivers and racers. Did you personally test out the Kontrol Pros on your focus at a road course or are you just going by what one man with a graph and no pictures to back up his testing process or that he even used the dampers he said he tested. Word of mouth has a good way of ruining alot of things, and before you jump into the boat of Ksport bashing, (which you are bashing Ksport now that they have shown up here) don't you think you should wait and see what Ksports dyno results are? The man said they are willing to test them, show the proof and that they are building a NEW dyno to test them on. Which is another variable I wont get into.

To make a long story short, don't sell a brand new company short just because you heard some stuff and one guy pointed at a graph and said hey heres the proof. You need to gather information from both sides, and now that we have seen that Ksport is willing step up and prove what their product can do I say lets sit back, all take a long deep breath, calm down and be civil about it. Like I said before if that was a graph stating the Bilstein or some other big name company was junk do you think that they would come to our neck of the woods to back up their claims? I highly doubt it.

I'm not trying to be a doucher here I just read this thread and to me it seemed like you and maybe one or two others were lashing out at Ksport and I felt as though you all need to calm down about it. This isn't FF I respect your choice to to procure information as to weather or not Ksport is a viable option for track only uses.

Well, no, I didn't test out the Ksports on my Focus, as I haven't owned one for nearly 2 years...

I don't think I've taken an uncivil tone at all in this thread. No one is "lashing out" at Ksport, as far as I can tell. We just want data to back up the claims their company makes. Contrary to your assertion, I have actually told KsportBranden that I think it's great that he's here and trying to clear things up:

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1

Again, I really do appreciate your presence in this thread. As ClintB1321 said, we're honestly not trying to crap on Ksport here. We just want people to understand that just because a product looks great and makes certain claims, it doesn't automatically mean it's on par with many of the tried-and-true options out there.

When a company says that their dampers are adjustable for rebound and compression, we'd like to see some evidence that shows that they really are (especially if evidence has been presented to the contrary). Of course, we've yet to see any such data (which, as KsportBranden himself pointed out, is because the company's U.S. arm doesn't even have a shock dyno yet). It's funny to me that KsportBranden is so quick to discredit Tri-Point's results when his company doesn't seem to even have any of their own to post up...

Obviously, people are interpreting my intentions as being malicious, but that is not the case. I simply want people to educate themselves about what it is they are putting on their car, and to make them understand what it is a damper is supposed to do (and that just because the car "rides like it's on rails" doesn't mean that they've actually improved things)...

Originally Posted by svo_dave

A little update to the whole k sport part of this thread, it looks like they have just recently completely redesigned the front coilover to properly fit the ford focus, it has some added height to overall unit and you can lower car to fit your needs, and actually has a nice tab welded on to mount swaybar, not that black threaded bracket thing, and they are in process of addressing the issue of how the rears mount. When I receive mine (which should be very soon) I will scan and post dyno so we will see how they stack up.

Awesome.

Do you have access to a shock dyno? It's my understanding that Ksport only actually provides the individual dyno plots for their Circuit Pro setups (which isn't available in a Focus application, as far as I can tell, and whose quality isn't even being questioned in this particular thread).

At any rate, I'd love to see the results.

[svo_dave]

I posted my information to soon, that's why I edited it. I have spoken with k sport and we are going to see how things work out with new design before anything happens. I will be receiving dyno's for my coilovers, but it is probably irrelevant to post them. I have the k sport rr suspension were everything is custom made and valved, where most have the kontrol pro which is not custom made to order, but that version of the coilover is the one in question. Once k sport gets acclimated with their in house dyno I can guarantee they will post up dyno's of the kontrol pro's.

[WRCwannabe]

rage.

i was thinking about getting k sports for my car, use mainly for DD, but will try to get some road course action on too.

but i really like the bilstein pss9's

and im fully gutted besides front seats and dash.
and procharger going on soon, so i need something to keep me on the road.
but at the same time it seems that the Ksports drop the car soo low, i might be going with 18x8 or even 18x9's but seeing how low they put the car 17's would be maximum. even with going wide body (which i am)
but the tire would be in the fender well or whatver

[svo_dave]

I would wait a bit for the k sport dyno's to come out, you might be able to save alot of money on a decent setup, and I suspect soon the k sports won't drop the car so low and you can lower as you want. If you are from middle USA like I am tracks are going to be closing so you that gives a bit of time to wait and see what happens. And if you are new to road racing I would go to event or two on stockish suspension and learn the limits of the car, and then upgrade, at least that's what every school I went to or book I have read has taught, and it has done wonders for my lap times.

[SaucyMuffin]

Is the Ksport dood ever going to post again?

[svo_dave]

Originally Posted by SaucyMuffin

Is the Ksport dood ever going to post again?

As per my last conversation with him the answer is yes, he will post again, it just might be a little while.