Public Service Announcement - Re: Coilovers ("budget setups," in particular)

[Nliiitend1]

In light of the fact that there have been some relatively new additions to the Focus coilover market, I've decided to start this thread in an attempt to remind people that for the most part, you get what you pay for and that you shouldn't expect too much out of a "budget" setup.

This is a link to a Mazda forum thread where Jeff from Tri-Sport Engineering posted some striking shock dyno results:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123666252&highlight=ksport

...and this is a link to a pretty well-known site that dissects and explains the difference between the "budget setups" and setups from the likes of Bilstein, Ohlins, Penske, Koni, Dynamic, Sachs, etc. The site author takes some liberties and may go a bit overboard in his sweeping generalizations, but the major theme is a valid one:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

In both cases, shock dyno testing reveals that at the very best, the "budget brands" (Tein, Ksport, D2, etc.) are horribly inconsistent and at the very worst they're valved completely wrong and/or they do not at all live up to the claims of the manufacturer when it comes to their adjustability.

I'm not starting this thread to say that these products are completely worthless or that they don't have their place in the market, but I do think it needs to be pointed out that there is a reason you can buy some of these setups for substantially less than $1K. They simply aren't engineered well (and likely aren't even engineered on a platform-specific basis) and the shock dynos show it.

If this evidence isn't enough to convince you, or if you're curious to read more into it, I encourage you to do a google search for shock dynos or other evidence to the contrary. Time and time again, I think you'll find that these companies simply can't back up their claims with data, and you'll find plenty of people that toe the line of what I'm saying here.

Hopefully this will save some people who perhaps just didn't know any better from putting a product on their car that isn't what the manufacturer claims it is. I just want people to be as well-informed as possible.

[ClintB1321]

^good job putting the link i put up in there

[MichaelXi]

Good Post.
I'm going to Sticky this for awhile.
I like that you mentioned that they may have their place in the market, just that the consumer should be aware of WHY the "Good Ones" are indeed "The Good Ones", and as such, cost more.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by ClintB1321

^good job putting the link i put up in there

Did I miss something?

Originally Posted by MichaelXi

Good Post.
I'm going to Sticky this for awhile.
I like that you mentioned that they may have their place in the market, just that the consumer should be aware of WHY the "Good Ones" are indeed "The Good Ones", and as such, cost more.

Thanks.

[ClintB1321]

^i put that link of the same article in another recent thread in suspension tuning, thats all

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by ClintB1321

^i put that link of the same article in another recent thread in suspension tuning, thats all

Ah, gotcha.

I think I've seen it pop up on almost every forum I've ever really scoured for good suspension tuning info.

Like I said before, if you can read past the author's sometimes arrogant tone and get down to the nitty gritty of what he says, there is a ton of good information on his site. I used to have another similar site bookmarked that was put together by a guy who designs custom race dampers for all sorts of cars including cars from several different formula series, but I can't seem to find it now (and the computer I had it bookmarked on is long dead )...

I went back and searched through your posts out of curiosity just now, and now that you mention it, I do think I read through that thread where you posted it...it had just slipped my mind.

If anyone has any more info they know of (shock dyno plots, evidence-based write-ups, etc.) that could add to the conversation in this thread or that would be a good point of reference, please feel free to post it up. The more good information/data we can post, the better.

[sleeperlove]

To anyone reading this, the information here also applies to regular dampers as well. The springs/ rates are a minor player in this discussion as they can often be easily changed but the damping is critical to the setup working as it should.

[KsportBranden]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1

In light of the fact that there have been some relatively new additions to the Focus coilover market, I've decided to start this thread in an attempt to remind people that for the most part, you get what you pay for and that you shouldn't expect too much out of a "budget" setup.

This is a link to a Mazda forum thread where Jeff from Tri-Sport Engineering posted some striking shock dyno results:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123666252&highlight=ksport

...and this is a link to a pretty well-known site that dissects and explains the difference between the "budget setups" and setups from the likes of Bilstein, Ohlins, Penske, Koni, Dynamic, Sachs, etc. The site author takes some liberties and may go a bit overboard in his sweeping generalizations, but the major theme is a valid one:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

In both cases, shock dyno testing reveals that at the very best, the "budget brands" (Tein, Ksport, D2, etc.) are horribly inconsistent and at the very worst they're valved completely wrong and/or they do not at all live up to the claims of the manufacturer when it comes to their adjustability.

I'm not starting this thread to say that these products are completely worthless or that they don't have their place in the market, but I do think it needs to be pointed out that there is a reason you can buy some of these setups for substantially less than $1K. They simply aren't engineered well (and likely aren't even engineered on a platform-specific basis) and the shock dynos show it.

If this evidence isn't enough to convince you, or if you're curious to read more into it, I encourage you to do a google search for shock dynos or other evidence to the contrary. Time and time again, I think you'll find that these companies simply can't back up their claims with data, and you'll find plenty of people that toe the line of what I'm saying here.

Hopefully this will save some people who perhaps just didn't know any better from putting a product on their car that isn't what the manufacturer claims it is. I just want people to be as well-informed as possible.

I think it'd be fair to get info on the current generation shocks used in our coilovers, as opposed to ones outdated over 2 years.

If the purpose of this thread is to spread information, relevant information should be attained.

[ClintB1321]

^whats the difference between the dampers you guys used two years ago and the current ones?

[sleeperlove]

Originally Posted by KsportBranden

I think it'd be fair to get info on the current generation shocks used in our coilovers, as opposed to ones outdated over 2 years.

If the purpose of this thread is to spread information, relevant information should be attained.

Perhaps you could provide us with said information.

[jorge.bueras]

I always wondered about these. These sell on ebay right?

[svo_dave]

I have to admit I might have been a bit negative on k sports side, I was just frustrated that I didn't get e-mails returned in timely fashion. As far as everyone I have talked to via pm or on the phone the k sports come with an orange bracket for the rear which is pretty much unusable, they are now aware of this, apparently nobody has brought it to there attention before but this issue is now being looked into. I also have to agree with Brandon and say its not fair to go off of dyno chart from two years ago, but if that's all that's out there that's all thats out there. It looks like I will be getting new front coilovers and I will be receiving dyno charts with them and I will be posting them. I say lets give them a chance to see if product has improved over the years which I highly suspect it has, either way I will have dyno charts posted so we will know for sure. Apparently I am the first person to complain about the fronts being to short but after talking to some people this is not an issue and after talking toi some people it is. If you have to run a coilover at highest possible setting just for clearance cause your running a stock 17" wheel and still have to roll fenders that seems definetly not ideal, how can you corner weight a car like that, but if other people have had this issue and not spoken up then how would k sport know. Out of all the people I talked to most were running aftermarket wheels so they didn't have to roll fender but still had suspension at highest setting and would much appreciate a bit longer of a front coilover. I just got off the phone with k sport and it appears they are going out of there way to work with my setup, which is great because I refuse to go to aftermarket wheel. It would be nice if some of the people running k sport would post there thoughts, maybe even wheel/tire size and offset, in my thread about if anyone is running them, because as I have found out people on this board are running them, and to me it appears the front strut needs to be taller. Either way I will post results once new fronts get installed and will pass on information on the rear installation about the brackets no one uses as I will be trying to help them get that issue sorted out to the best of my ability. Also in the next month or two I will be getting rears re-valved and will get dyno charts of those also so either way here shortly we will have dyno proof of what k sport has to offer.

[KsportBranden]

Originally Posted by ClintB1321

^whats the difference between the dampers you guys used two years ago and the current ones?

Without getting into specifics on the internals of the shocks (honestly, I don't personally know the specifics, I'm in the sales dept, it's info that can be attained but not likely wanting to be shared), theres 2 years worth of R&D. We also take our customers feedback into consideration when making changes to anything on the coilovers. We also have 2 local engineers as well as a new engineer in our factory over seas. We have a shock dyno being put together for us that should be here within a month or so, so that we can perform our own testing on each batch of shocks to ensure quality performance & consistency twice over.

Basic and noticeable changes externally are few. All Macpherson shock applications have changed in O.D. from 50mm to 52mm. We also started using a different type of electorplating on the shock to better accomodate our customers that deal with snow every year (in turn making the shock bodies black). The salt on the roads would eventually eat through the electroplating making it very difficult to adjust the coilovers. Also we've changed our lower mounts to be black as well, no functionality in this obviously just a change up from the old versions.

I think if you want an accurate comparison, compare. Posting a shock dyno sheet from 2 years ago and NO other information on any other manufacturers mentioned, makes ya wonder what the motives behind the post is. If the post here is bring up Ksport shocks, name it so, as opposed to trying to hide it behind the guise of a comparison. If our product is problematic we'd like to know about it so we can change it and make it better.

If anyone has any issues with their Ksport's feel free to PM me or email me at Branden@ksportusa.com

[lowlifestyle]

Tein is a "budget brand"?

[ClintB1321]

Originally Posted by KsportBranden

Without getting into specifics on the internals of the shocks (honestly, I don't personally know the specifics, I'm in the sales dept, it's info that can be attained but not likely wanting to be shared), theres 2 years worth of R&D. We also take our customers feedback into consideration when making changes to anything on the coilovers. We also have 2 local engineers as well as a new engineer in our factory over seas. We have a shock dyno being put together for us that should be here within a month or so, so that we can perform our own testing on each batch of shocks to ensure quality performance & consistency twice over.

Basic and noticeable changes externally are few. All Macpherson shock applications have changed in O.D. from 50mm to 52mm. We also started using a different type of electorplating on the shock to better accomodate our customers that deal with snow every year (in turn making the shock bodies black). The salt on the roads would eventually eat through the electroplating making it very difficult to adjust the coilovers. Also we've changed our lower mounts to be black as well, no functionality in this obviously just a change up from the old versions.

I think if you want an accurate comparison, compare. Posting a shock dyno sheet from 2 years ago and NO other information on any other manufacturers mentioned, makes ya wonder what the motives behind the post is. If the post here is bring up Ksport shocks, name it so, as opposed to trying to hide it behind the guise of a comparison. If our product is problematic we'd like to know about it so we can change it and make it better.

If anyone has any issues with their Ksport's feel free to PM me or email me at Branden@ksportusa.com

im sorry but i wasnt really asking about the construction of the damper body. IM interested in the valving and performance under performance oriented conditions (road courses).

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by KsportBranden

Without getting into specifics on the internals of the shocks (honestly, I don't personally know the specifics, I'm in the sales dept, it's info that can be attained but not likely wanting to be shared), theres 2 years worth of R&D. We also take our customers feedback into consideration when making changes to anything on the coilovers. We also have 2 local engineers as well as a new engineer in our factory over seas. We have a shock dyno being put together for us that should be here within a month or so, so that we can perform our own testing on each batch of shocks to ensure quality performance & consistency twice over.

Basic and noticeable changes externally are few. All Macpherson shock applications have changed in O.D. from 50mm to 52mm. We also started using a different type of electorplating on the shock to better accomodate our customers that deal with snow every year (in turn making the shock bodies black). The salt on the roads would eventually eat through the electroplating making it very difficult to adjust the coilovers. Also we've changed our lower mounts to be black as well, no functionality in this obviously just a change up from the old versions.

I think if you want an accurate comparison, compare. Posting a shock dyno sheet from 2 years ago and NO other information on any other manufacturers mentioned, makes ya wonder what the motives behind the post is. If the post here is bring up Ksport shocks, name it so, as opposed to trying to hide it behind the guise of a comparison. If our product is problematic we'd like to know about it so we can change it and make it better.

If anyone has any issues with their Ksport's feel free to PM me or email me at Branden@ksportusa.com

The point of this thread is to spread evidence-based information about dampers, coilover setups, and suspension parts in general, as far as I'm concerned. If you would like to provide some actual evidence to back up your and your company's claims I think it would be a great addition to this thread.

The link to the thread on the Mazda board was posted because I ran across it on one of the other forums I frequent, and I thought it was worth posting. If you'd like to address that link's contents directly with some contrary evidence I'd be pleased to hear you out on that as well. Your product claims seemed to be the same 2 years ago when those tests were performed as they are now on your current website, so are you saying those tests were invalid and that your product performed differently than the evidence suggests?

I'm really not starting this to bash Ksport in particular, or to bash anyone for that matter. There are other plenty of other setups for the Focus market (and MS3 market, for that matter) that don't seem to ever provide evidence to back up their claims, when there have been independent tests performed that call those claims into question. I honestly started this thread to get people to start thinking about these things before they go drop a grand on a coilover setup that they're fooled into thinking is the cat's pajamas, and to make people start to understand that to a great degree, you truly do get what you pay for.

[illinipo]

I was very disappointed when i went damper shopping a few months ago and found NOTHING in the way of rate curves or real hard evidence of how the shocks I would be buying would act. I really wish the manufacturers would use this information to sell their products.

[ClintB1321]

^ i know reza has shock dynos for the H&R coilovers, ill pm him and see if he's willing to post such info. But besides that, the H&R's with the rates im running (512 front 400 rear as opposed to the off the self rates) are fantastic on track despiteq being a "street" coilover with no damping adjustment. For the money its the best bet for performance.

[KsportBranden]

Originally Posted by ClintB1321

im sorry but i wasnt really asking about the construction of the damper body. IM interested in the valving and performance under performance oriented conditions (road courses).

http://ksportusa.blogspot.com/


Read through the write ups of the NASA Nats, and industry track day. The results speak for themselves.

As far as valving goes, nothing I could tell you about that would be conclusive by any means. Without shock dyno results they don't mean anything. Once we get a shock dyno on location we'll be running the dampers through a multitude of testing.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by KsportBranden

http://ksportusa.blogspot.com/


Read through the write ups of the NASA Nats, and industry track day. The results speak for themselves.

As far as valving goes, nothing I could tell you about that would be conclusive by any means. Without shock dyno results they don't mean anything. Once we get a shock dyno on location we'll be running the dampers through a multitude of testing.

I don't mean any disrespect, but all that really shows is that some very fast cars/drivers happen to be using Ksports. That's about the only definitive conclusion that can be drawn with that information.

I'd be a bit more impressed if the same cars were then run with the same drivers on different suspension setups and then the times were compared and/or subjective ratings were assigned to the different setups by the drivers...

Furthermore, it concerns me that for all the time your company has been selling/marketing dampers, you haven't even had a shock dyno at your disposal...

Do you source your dampers from another firm?

[illinipo]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1

Furthermore, it concerns me that for all the time your company has been selling/marketing dampers, you haven't even had a shock dyno at your disposal...

My thoughts exactly...

That would be like selling a car with an untuned engine...

[ClintB1321]

Originally Posted by KsportBranden

http://ksportusa.blogspot.com/


Read through the write ups of the NASA Nats, and industry track day. The results speak for themselves.

As far as valving goes, nothing I could tell you about that would be conclusive by any means. Without shock dyno results they don't mean anything. Once we get a shock dyno on location we'll be running the dampers through a multitude of testing.

so your telling me Tage Switch out his winning custom valved Koni/GC setup for some Ksports? and pics of the ksprort system or tage's car?

and the karwerks M3 you guys have with video from spring mountain has your guys most expensive double adjustable external res coilover....which for one isnt avalible for the focus, and how slow could that car go around the track? it has 295mm NT01's up front and 345 in rear, 650+whp, with my good friend Ivo Mitkov driving who is a exceptional driver, who in fact i spoke with about the suspension and he himself said it was too soft and under damped to be considered a race coilover.

dont get me wrong braden, i wanna see good suspension option available for the focus as the next guy, but i dont want to see the any coilover get crowned the king of focus coilovers because its shiny, has adjustment knobs, and pillow ball mounts. If any of your Ksports performed better then my current setup on my track focus, i would run it. because i cae about performance over brand name anyday of the week. But i'd like to see some proof of the claims.

[KsportBranden]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1

The point of this thread is to spread evidence-based information about dampers, coilover setups, and suspension parts in general, as far as I'm concerned. If you would like to provide some actual evidence to back up your and your company's claims I think it would be a great addition to this thread.

The link to the thread on the Mazda board was posted because I ran across it on one of the other forums I frequent, and I thought it was worth posting. If you'd like to address that link's contents directly with some contrary evidence I'd be pleased to hear you out on that as well. Your product claims seemed to be the same 2 years ago when those tests were performed as they are now on your current website, so are you saying those tests were invalid and that your product performed differently than the evidence suggests?

I'm really not starting this to bash Ksport in particular, or to bash anyone for that matter. There are other plenty of other setups for the Focus market (and MS3 market, for that matter) that don't seem to ever provide evidence to back up their claims, when there have been independent tests performed that call those claims into question. I honestly started this thread to get people to start thinking about these things before they go drop a grand on a coilover setup that they're fooled into thinking is the cat's pajamas, and to make people start to understand that to a great degree, you truly do get what you pay for.

It's funny to me that you treat that 'evidence' like it's a bible when in fact tripoint has never once recieved a brand new damper kit from Ksport. Not in the 5 years we've been in business. I wasn't employed here during that time, but I do have the ability to look up our customer history and they were never even a dealer. There was never any proof that the kit tested was new. Just their word. To me, with claims like this, there must be proof.

I'm not going to refute anything posted in tripoints results, to me they aren't valid.

Aside from that, we've had tremendous on track success. Our sales this year are higher than they ever have been. Our failure rate since our new shocks have been out is less than 2%. The majority of people who buy coilovers daily drive their cars, now do you honestly believe that in your trecks to work and the grocery store that your dampers must perform on the same level of industry leading dampers?

Our version RR dampers are built for specific applications. They come with dyno charts in the box. NO ONE has ever called in with issues to their results. Our Kontrol Pro's are mass produced. A random selection of dampers from the batch are tested. Actual numbers of dampers tested isn't known by me at this time. It's how the manufacturing process works when you mass produce. Some slip through the cracks, they always will. Thats why we have a warranty. If anything is going to fail due to manufacture defect it'll happen early on.

My whole point is that when you buy a coilover for street use, it doesn't have to be moton/ohlin/penske quality. They just don't, you'd never use the damper to it's ability, if it must be for you, then Ksport/Megan/BC/Stance/Function&Form etc are not for you. As much as I'd like our product to be that, it's just too expensive. It's a double edged sword. We re-engineer our product to be on par with said brands...cost goes up or we lose money. Our off the shelf Kontrol Pro's ran the fastest time in the NASA TTS class at MMP's 3.0 mile configuration. Real world results IMO beat out bench racing any day. Looking at a dyno graph of ANY kind and trying to dictate how it would act in the real world especially in a comparitive manner = speculation aka bench racing.

**edit** I apologize if I'm coming off as rude. I'm on my 4th day of not smoking cigs so I'm a little

[KsportBranden]

Originally Posted by ClintB1321

so your telling me Tage Switch out his winning custom valved Koni/GC setup for some Ksports? and pics of the ksprort system or tage's car?

and the karwerks M3 you guys have with video from spring mountain has your guys most expensive double adjustable external res coilover....which for one isnt avalible for the focus, and how slow could that car go around the track? it has 295mm NT01's up front and 345 in rear, 650+whp, with my good friend Ivo Mitkov driving who is a exceptional driver, who in fact i spoke with about the suspension and he himself said it was too soft and under damped to be considered a race coilover.

dont get me wrong braden, i wanna see good suspension option available for the focus as the next guy, but i dont want to see the any coilover get crowned the king of focus coilovers because its shiny, has adjustment knobs, and pillow ball mounts. If any of your Ksports performed better then my current setup on my track focus, i would run it. because i cae about performance over brand name anyday of the week. But i'd like to see some proof of the claims.

I'll work on pics of Tage's suspension, and Oscars M3 is running Kontrol Pros NOT circuit pros, he's also running a custom rate that I advised against for the simple fact that the KP shocks aren't damped properly for those rates which is why Ivo is feeling what he is.

By no means am I saying it's best. I'm a realist, I've used the majority of the different coilovers on the market today. I know what our product is and what it isn't. Out of the options in the same price range, I believe it to be on top.

[syntheticGT]

I owned one set of K-sport coilovers.

I will never buy another product from them.

They were trash. The car rode like a covered wagon in a mine field, the perches were ridiculously hard to adjust, the spanner wrenches werent strong enough for the job, the top of the pillowball pivots rusted, one strut had to be rebuilt/replaced, and I could go on......

I have never been more unimpressed in my entire life with something automotive related. I dont care about brands...I love Rota wheels. But this took the cake for me. After the numerous different suspensions I have had on my cars...Ksport is the last on my list of likes.

Just one former owners opinion.