SVT vs Mini - Focaljet

**drew08** · 06-19-2001, 07:36 PM

This is my first post, so bear with me.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the new Mini coming from BMW? I put a deposit down on an SVT Focus last week, but then I noticed that Denver is one of the few cities that has been blessed with a Mini dealership, so I started checking up on the Mini. Here's a couple of reviews (hope the links go through)
http://www.topgear.beeb.com/content/...dtests/01.html
http://www.competitionpress.com/cove...065cv63cv56872

The Cooper doesn't have near as much guts as the SVT, but it looks to be a really fun drive. And, the Cooper S *will* be serious competition for the SVT.

I'm inclined to stick with the SVT because the Focus is an older car and it's been "shaken down" more. Any thoughts?

**Peloton25** · 06-19-2001, 07:41 PM

Doesn't that MINI have a Neon engine??

No seriously it's going to be a really cool car. A little on the small side, but if you can live with that then you'll probably love the thing.

>8^)
ER

**OutaFocus** · 06-19-2001, 08:01 PM

Actually it has an engine "jointly" developed by BMW and Chrysler although I don't know how much technology Chrysler (pre-Daimler-Chrysler) could bring to the table that BMW couldn't. My guess is BMW wanted to share the expense and maybe gain some additional mfg. capacity. The Mini is a BMW creation, so it should be well built, well sorted, and expensive as hell to fix once the warranty runs out. It WILL be competition for the SVT.

**drew08** · 06-19-2001, 08:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Peloton25:
Doesn't that MINI have a Neon engine??

No seriously it's going to be a really cool car. A little on the small side, but if you can live with that then you'll probably love the thing.

>8^)
ER<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I owned a classic Mini, so this thing is a little on the big side.

Also, the Chrysler engine seems to be the proverbial crazy aunt locked up in BMW's attic, they don't talk about it much.

**Peloton25** · 06-19-2001, 08:19 PM

A classic mini is on my list of cars to own.

I saw the Road&Track magazine side-by-side comparison a while back and the new one is indeed much bigger. Compared to the Focus though - it is a tiny car.

I have no doubt that the new one will be an incredible success.

>8^)
ER

**Slayer420** · 06-19-2001, 10:22 PM

I really like BMW vehicles in general, but I have to say I don't like this one at all. I have never been a fan of that type of styling. Just my .02.

**Ataru** · 06-20-2001, 12:37 AM

That seems kinda funny. BMW and Chrysler developing the Mini engine. Mercedes and BMW are long time rivals and now one of Daimler Chrysler's devisions is working with the rival. Funny.

**focaljet-1** · 06-20-2001, 01:45 AM

The New MINI has small exterior dimensions but is actually larger inside then you would imagine. Good packaging.

BTW, the engine is the same one that will be used in the upcoming BMW "1 Series". The sedan will make it here but I hope and pray that they bring the 116i hatch to the States.

------------------
Please do not post questions to me in the forums, email them directly to webmaster@focaljet.com

**focaljet-1** · 06-20-2001, 01:48 AM

BTW, the supercharged "S" version with the John Cooper Garage aftermarket kit is rumored to be rated at 197HP

Since our local (po-dunk) dealer wasn't one of the 70 BMW dealerships chosen to receive a MINI dealership, my wife's downpayment was returned.

I will be in Indy on Friday and will stop by D&R BMW to see what I can do

they are probably all spoken for at this point though.

------------------
Please do not post questions to me in the forums, email them directly to webmaster@focaljet.com

**6thGear** · 06-20-2001, 04:39 AM

If you are one of those people who can't make a simple decision between a Mini and a Mustang GT, what are you doing here?

Did any of you wet your pants when you heard VW was going to make a "new" Beetle? Especially a $17,000 POS Beetle? I hope not. I know somebody in America thanked their lucky stars that VW came out with a Beetle that targeted shallow boppy girls who have to talk on their cell phone while they drive and VW put the price out of reach for us poor folk for extra fun. The new Beetle is single-handedly erasing the 60's with their "new" Beetle.

Will the Mini be any different? No, just a chip on the diamond ring of wealthy elitists who have no taste or love for cars, nor respect for the original Mini, a fine automobile.

------------------
I never hit the brakes and I was shiftin' gears!

**drew08** · 06-20-2001, 10:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by wrcfan:
BTW, the engine is the same one that will be used in the upcoming BMW "1 Series". The sedan will make it here but I hope and pray that they bring the 116i hatch to the States.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, BMW's putting the engine in one of their own series? That's interesting.

Alright, thanks for the input guys.

**BLKZX3** · 06-20-2001, 11:20 AM

BMW will not be bringing the hatch because it's ugly. UMMM because Americans don't buy premium hatches. ERRR It'll steal sales from the Mini... What ever the reason, the hatch is still ugly. There's a retro Mini dealer here in San Diego and he even has the truck and the van. I think what will be lost on the Mini is it's amazing packaging, great driving dynamics, and low fuel cost. That sounds earily familiar. If they could sell it for 17-18 base and 20 for the "S", then it'll be worth a look. But, don't expect the dealers to restrain from "Market Adjustment".

**focaljet-1** · 06-20-2001, 11:21 AM

6thGear-

You've obviously never seen HPA's 508HP Beetle then.

Also, I know several people that aren't "wealthy elitists" that are interested in the MINI, one of them being a national level SCCA Solo competitor.

BTW, I don't get the Mustang reference either, no one in this thread mentioned a Mustang.

**focaljet-1** · 06-20-2001, 11:27 AM

BLKZX3-

I agree that Americans have a bad (albeit wrong) view of hatches. They equate them with "cheap" while the Europeans equate them with "versatile".

But that may change. With the introduction of the new Mercedes C-Class Sports Coupe. It is a hatch and there is already a waiting list for them.

------------------
Please do not post questions to me in the forums, email them directly to webmaster@focaljet.com

[This message has been edited by wrcfan (edited 06-20-2001).]

**BLKZX3** · 06-20-2001, 11:34 AM

I completely agree about the Mercedes changing perception. There's only one problem, They're marketing it as a COUPE. There's not a single mention that it's a hatchback. But, I did see a picture of a silver one with the 17" AMG wheels and lowered suspension that caught my attention. I even heard they lowered the base price to around $25,000. Not bad for a Mercedes. I believe if Ford could up their cache for the SVT, then maybe they could create a market for a $25,000 RS, or Cosworth. They'll have to come to grips it's a completely different market than the standard ZX3.

[This message has been edited by BLKZX3 (edited 06-20-2001).]

**6thGear** · 06-20-2001, 01:02 PM

Well if you're old enough to feel nostalgic about the Mini you should be saddened by the fact it was styled by an American, engine designed in Detroit and built in Brazil, with a Peugeot 206 gearbox - according to Autocar magazine(a British rag).

The Mini Cooper S will get a Getrag 6-speed though.

I think it's the same one for the SVT Focus, being Getrag hasn't made trannies for cars before the SVT came along.

BLKZX3 -- Have you seen the BMW M Coupe? It's a premium hatch in my opinion, even though they say "coupe". I see them all over North County(San Diego).

WRCFAN -- You could slap a rocket on a beetle and try to give it to me for free, but there's no way I'd take a bubble gum rehash of a car that always broke down(according to my Mom's experience with her Beetle, way back in the day). I just find these type of cars; PT Cruiser, New Mini, New Beetle, and the New Impala and Malibu to be a bastardization of the memories many Americans have of the ice cream truck, that funny thing from the UK, their first car, or the day their father came home from the dealership with a new car, bright, sparkling chrome, the reason you worked overtime those couple of weeks. Leave the cars in the past where they belong; in the driveways of your memories

**dru2002** · 06-20-2001, 01:45 PM

the m coupe is a coupe theres no third door.

**OutaFocus** · 06-20-2001, 01:52 PM

Getrag hasn't made transmissions before the SVT??? What????

Btw, the MTX75 in our cars is made by Getrag.

**BLKZX3** · 06-20-2001, 01:55 PM

True with the M Coupe. But again, it's about marketing. The M is a hard top version of a two seat convertable. It's not marketed as a max "carryall" or "practical" as the typical hatch. But, your point is well taken. Kiss ass performance has a tendency to make people forget about hatch versus trunk. I think if SVT can give this perception, plus reliability and great dealer service, they'll succeed.

**Peloton25** · 06-20-2001, 02:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dru2002:
the m coupe is a coupe theres no third door.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The M-Coupe is a hatch...

I don't have time to find a picture of it open, but the whole back of the thing raises up just like the Focus. If that's not a hatch, then I don't know what is?

>8^)
ER

**Focused** · 06-20-2001, 02:18 PM

does anybody know the torque numbers for the Mini??...i know the Mini's higher level non-supercharged version is 165 hp but i don't know the torque numbers.

oh surprisingly, the Mini ways just about as much as a ZX3...about 2,500. It sucks that the SVT weighs 2 hundred pounds more. but i with the Mini as heavy as 2,500 or so, it shouldn't be a killer toward the SVT.

i guess it depends on driver, gearing, traction...

nonetheless, i think the Mini looks nice, and will be nice. but, without even knowing the prices, i'm going to safely assume that it will be less of a positive in terms of money compared to the SVT.

BMW IMHO is over-rated. i realized this after all the BMW's i've seen on the road. dont' get me wrong, their VERY nice cars...can't beat the engineering and luxury combination blending. but for the money, i don't think its worth it. just my own opinion.

eric

**drew08** · 06-20-2001, 02:52 PM

The AutoWeek article says that the Cooper (non-supercharged) has 110 lb-ft of torque at 4500 rpm and 115 hp at 6000 rpm. The Cooper S (supercharged) has 163 hp... no torque numbers. They also say that MSRP will be "less than $18,000", that's the only reason I'm considering the Mini. But, like BLKZX3 said, what the dealers charge is another matter.

BTW, the weight is 2314lbs, a bit better than 2500lbs but still a lot for a tiny car.

After thinking about it I'm still leaning towards the SVT. This will be my only drive, so I need the more practical of the two. And, I'm betting that there's gonna be a few recalls with the Mini the first year out.

**dru2002** · 06-20-2001, 03:28 PM

i stand corrected i must have seen the picture of the m roadster with the hard top

**Peloton25** · 06-20-2001, 06:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dru2002:
i stand corrected i must have seen the picture of the m roadster with the hard top<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phew!! I was starting to worry about you.

It's all good.

>8^)
ER

**biker16** · 06-20-2001, 07:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by wrcfan:
BLKZX3-

I agree that Americans have a bad (albeit wrong) view of hatches. They equate them with "cheap" while the Europeans equate them with "versatile".

But that may change. With the introduction of the new Mercedes C-Class Sports Coupe. It is a hatch and there is already a waiting list for them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what do you mean americans love hatches as long as they are attached to a SUV or minivan.

------------------
Black Focus SE sport.
WHERE IS MY DURATEC?

you have 780,000 all I want is one.

I'm not a player I just crash alot.

http://home.att.net/~biker16/
"From this point on the world is in Focus"

06-19-2001, 07:36 PM	#1
drew08 Newbie Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 4	SVT vs Mini This is my first post, so bear with me. Does anyone have any thoughts on the new Mini coming from BMW? I put a deposit down on an SVT Focus last week, but then I noticed that Denver is one of the few cities that has been blessed with a Mini dealership, so I started checking up on the Mini. Here's a couple of reviews (hope the links go through) http://www.topgear.beeb.com/content/...dtests/01.html http://www.competitionpress.com/cove...065cv63cv56872 The Cooper doesn't have near as much guts as the SVT, but it looks to be a really fun drive. And, the Cooper S will be serious competition for the SVT. I'm inclined to stick with the SVT because the Focus is an older car and it's been "shaken down" more. Any thoughts?

06-19-2001, 07:41 PM	#2
Peloton25 Mr Know-It-All Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Moorpark, CA USA Posts: 21,779	Re: SVT vs Mini Doesn't that MINI have a Neon engine?? No seriously it's going to be a really cool car. A little on the small side, but if you can live with that then you'll probably love the thing. >8^) ER

06-19-2001, 08:01 PM	#3
OutaFocus Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Acworth, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,291	Re: SVT vs Mini Actually it has an engine "jointly" developed by BMW and Chrysler although I don't know how much technology Chrysler (pre-Daimler-Chrysler) could bring to the table that BMW couldn't. My guess is BMW wanted to share the expense and maybe gain some additional mfg. capacity. The Mini is a BMW creation, so it should be well built, well sorted, and expensive as hell to fix once the warranty runs out. It WILL be competition for the SVT.

06-19-2001, 08:06 PM	#4
drew08 Newbie Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 4	Re: SVT vs Mini <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peloton25: Doesn't that MINI have a Neon engine?? No seriously it's going to be a really cool car. A little on the small side, but if you can live with that then you'll probably love the thing. >8^) ER<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I owned a classic Mini, so this thing is a little on the big side. Also, the Chrysler engine seems to be the proverbial crazy aunt locked up in BMW's attic, they don't talk about it much.

06-19-2001, 08:19 PM	#5
Peloton25 Mr Know-It-All Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Moorpark, CA USA Posts: 21,779	Re: SVT vs Mini A classic mini is on my list of cars to own. I saw the Road&Track magazine side-by-side comparison a while back and the new one is indeed much bigger. Compared to the Focus though - it is a tiny car. I have no doubt that the new one will be an incredible success. >8^) ER

06-19-2001, 10:22 PM	#6
Slayer420 Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA Posts: 1,588	Re: SVT vs Mini I really like BMW vehicles in general, but I have to say I don't like this one at all. I have never been a fan of that type of styling. Just my .02.

06-20-2001, 12:37 AM	#7
Ataru Team Sonic Racing Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Where the winds come sweeping down the plains Posts: 11,411	Re: SVT vs Mini That seems kinda funny. BMW and Chrysler developing the Mini engine. Mercedes and BMW are long time rivals and now one of Daimler Chrysler's devisions is working with the rival. Funny.

06-20-2001, 01:45 AM	#8
focaljet-1 Small Car Czar Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: On the RotorMedia helipad Posts: 29,076	Re: SVT vs Mini The New MINI has small exterior dimensions but is actually larger inside then you would imagine. Good packaging. BTW, the engine is the same one that will be used in the upcoming BMW "1 Series". The sedan will make it here but I hope and pray that they bring the 116i hatch to the States. ------------------ Please do not post questions to me in the forums, email them directly to webmaster@focaljet.com

06-20-2001, 01:48 AM	#9
focaljet-1 Small Car Czar Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: On the RotorMedia helipad Posts: 29,076	Re: SVT vs Mini BTW, the supercharged "S" version with the John Cooper Garage aftermarket kit is rumored to be rated at 197HP Since our local (po-dunk) dealer wasn't one of the 70 BMW dealerships chosen to receive a MINI dealership, my wife's downpayment was returned. I will be in Indy on Friday and will stop by D&R BMW to see what I can do they are probably all spoken for at this point though. ------------------ Please do not post questions to me in the forums, email them directly to webmaster@focaljet.com

06-20-2001, 04:39 AM	#10
6thGear Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Soon to be classified Posts: 1,122	Re: SVT vs Mini If you are one of those people who can't make a simple decision between a Mini and a Mustang GT, what are you doing here? Did any of you wet your pants when you heard VW was going to make a "new" Beetle? Especially a $17,000 POS Beetle? I hope not. I know somebody in America thanked their lucky stars that VW came out with a Beetle that targeted shallow boppy girls who have to talk on their cell phone while they drive and VW put the price out of reach for us poor folk for extra fun. The new Beetle is single-handedly erasing the 60's with their "new" Beetle. Will the Mini be any different? No, just a chip on the diamond ring of wealthy elitists who have no taste or love for cars, nor respect for the original Mini, a fine automobile. ------------------ I never hit the brakes and I was shiftin' gears!

06-20-2001, 10:15 AM	#11
drew08 Newbie Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 4	Re: SVT vs Mini <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wrcfan: BTW, the engine is the same one that will be used in the upcoming BMW "1 Series". The sedan will make it here but I hope and pray that they bring the 116i hatch to the States. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So, BMW's putting the engine in one of their own series? That's interesting. Alright, thanks for the input guys.

06-20-2001, 11:20 AM	#12
BLKZX3 TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Diego, CA USA Posts: 205	Re: SVT vs Mini BMW will not be bringing the hatch because it's ugly. UMMM because Americans don't buy premium hatches. ERRR It'll steal sales from the Mini... What ever the reason, the hatch is still ugly. There's a retro Mini dealer here in San Diego and he even has the truck and the van. I think what will be lost on the Mini is it's amazing packaging, great driving dynamics, and low fuel cost. That sounds earily familiar. If they could sell it for 17-18 base and 20 for the "S", then it'll be worth a look. But, don't expect the dealers to restrain from "Market Adjustment".

06-20-2001, 11:21 AM	#13
focaljet-1 Small Car Czar Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: On the RotorMedia helipad Posts: 29,076	Re: SVT vs Mini 6thGear- You've obviously never seen HPA's 508HP Beetle then. Also, I know several people that aren't "wealthy elitists" that are interested in the MINI, one of them being a national level SCCA Solo competitor. BTW, I don't get the Mustang reference either, no one in this thread mentioned a Mustang.

06-20-2001, 11:27 AM	#14
focaljet-1 Small Car Czar Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: On the RotorMedia helipad Posts: 29,076	Re: SVT vs Mini BLKZX3- I agree that Americans have a bad (albeit wrong) view of hatches. They equate them with "cheap" while the Europeans equate them with "versatile". But that may change. With the introduction of the new Mercedes C-Class Sports Coupe. It is a hatch and there is already a waiting list for them. ------------------ Please do not post questions to me in the forums, email them directly to webmaster@focaljet.com [This message has been edited by wrcfan (edited 06-20-2001).]

06-20-2001, 11:34 AM	#15
BLKZX3 TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Diego, CA USA Posts: 205	Re: SVT vs Mini I completely agree about the Mercedes changing perception. There's only one problem, They're marketing it as a COUPE. There's not a single mention that it's a hatchback. But, I did see a picture of a silver one with the 17" AMG wheels and lowered suspension that caught my attention. I even heard they lowered the base price to around $25,000. Not bad for a Mercedes. I believe if Ford could up their cache for the SVT, then maybe they could create a market for a $25,000 RS, or Cosworth. They'll have to come to grips it's a completely different market than the standard ZX3. [This message has been edited by BLKZX3 (edited 06-20-2001).]

06-20-2001, 01:02 PM	#16
6thGear Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Soon to be classified Posts: 1,122	Re: SVT vs Mini Well if you're old enough to feel nostalgic about the Mini you should be saddened by the fact it was styled by an American, engine designed in Detroit and built in Brazil, with a Peugeot 206 gearbox - according to Autocar magazine(a British rag). The Mini Cooper S will get a Getrag 6-speed though. I think it's the same one for the SVT Focus, being Getrag hasn't made trannies for cars before the SVT came along. BLKZX3 -- Have you seen the BMW M Coupe? It's a premium hatch in my opinion, even though they say "coupe". I see them all over North County(San Diego). WRCFAN -- You could slap a rocket on a beetle and try to give it to me for free, but there's no way I'd take a bubble gum rehash of a car that always broke down(according to my Mom's experience with her Beetle, way back in the day). I just find these type of cars; PT Cruiser, New Mini, New Beetle, and the New Impala and Malibu to be a bastardization of the memories many Americans have of the ice cream truck, that funny thing from the UK, their first car, or the day their father came home from the dealership with a new car, bright, sparkling chrome, the reason you worked overtime those couple of weeks. Leave the cars in the past where they belong; in the driveways of your memories

06-20-2001, 01:45 PM	#17
dru2002 Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 1,089	Re: SVT vs Mini the m coupe is a coupe theres no third door.

06-20-2001, 01:52 PM	#18
OutaFocus Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Acworth, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,291	Re: SVT vs Mini Getrag hasn't made transmissions before the SVT??? What???? Btw, the MTX75 in our cars is made by Getrag.

06-20-2001, 01:55 PM	#19
BLKZX3 TEAM Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Diego, CA USA Posts: 205	Re: SVT vs Mini True with the M Coupe. But again, it's about marketing. The M is a hard top version of a two seat convertable. It's not marketed as a max "carryall" or "practical" as the typical hatch. But, your point is well taken. Kiss ass performance has a tendency to make people forget about hatch versus trunk. I think if SVT can give this perception, plus reliability and great dealer service, they'll succeed.

06-20-2001, 02:09 PM	#20
Peloton25 Mr Know-It-All Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Moorpark, CA USA Posts: 21,779	Re: SVT vs Mini <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dru2002: the m coupe is a coupe theres no third door.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The M-Coupe is a hatch... I don't have time to find a picture of it open, but the whole back of the thing raises up just like the Focus. If that's not a hatch, then I don't know what is? >8^) ER

06-20-2001, 02:18 PM	#21
Focused Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yonkers Posts: 4,844	Re: SVT vs Mini does anybody know the torque numbers for the Mini??...i know the Mini's higher level non-supercharged version is 165 hp but i don't know the torque numbers. oh surprisingly, the Mini ways just about as much as a ZX3...about 2,500. It sucks that the SVT weighs 2 hundred pounds more. but i with the Mini as heavy as 2,500 or so, it shouldn't be a killer toward the SVT. i guess it depends on driver, gearing, traction... nonetheless, i think the Mini looks nice, and will be nice. but, without even knowing the prices, i'm going to safely assume that it will be less of a positive in terms of money compared to the SVT. BMW IMHO is over-rated. i realized this after all the BMW's i've seen on the road. dont' get me wrong, their VERY nice cars...can't beat the engineering and luxury combination blending. but for the money, i don't think its worth it. just my own opinion. eric

06-20-2001, 02:52 PM	#22
drew08 Newbie Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 4	Re: SVT vs Mini The AutoWeek article says that the Cooper (non-supercharged) has 110 lb-ft of torque at 4500 rpm and 115 hp at 6000 rpm. The Cooper S (supercharged) has 163 hp... no torque numbers. They also say that MSRP will be "less than $18,000", that's the only reason I'm considering the Mini. But, like BLKZX3 said, what the dealers charge is another matter. BTW, the weight is 2314lbs, a bit better than 2500lbs but still a lot for a tiny car. After thinking about it I'm still leaning towards the SVT. This will be my only drive, so I need the more practical of the two. And, I'm betting that there's gonna be a few recalls with the Mini the first year out.

06-20-2001, 03:28 PM	#23
dru2002 Senior TEAM Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 1,089	Re: SVT vs Mini i stand corrected i must have seen the picture of the m roadster with the hard top

06-20-2001, 06:02 PM	#24
Peloton25 Mr Know-It-All Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Moorpark, CA USA Posts: 21,779	Re: SVT vs Mini <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dru2002: i stand corrected i must have seen the picture of the m roadster with the hard top<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Phew!! I was starting to worry about you. It's all good. >8^) ER

06-20-2001, 07:04 PM	#25
biker16 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Posts: 4,709	Re: SVT vs Mini <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wrcfan: BLKZX3- I agree that Americans have a bad (albeit wrong) view of hatches. They equate them with "cheap" while the Europeans equate them with "versatile". But that may change. With the introduction of the new Mercedes C-Class Sports Coupe. It is a hatch and there is already a waiting list for them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> what do you mean americans love hatches as long as they are attached to a SUV or minivan. ------------------ Black Focus SE sport. WHERE IS MY DURATEC? you have 780,000 all I want is one. I'm not a player I just crash alot. http://home.att.net/~biker16/ "From this point on the world is in Focus"

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