So are SUVs, Vans, etc. Evil to be Stamped Out or Not?

[EricR]

The following is a reply of mine that was just too far off topic from the tread where I orginally posted it. But I spent too much time on it to just delete it outright, so I've posted it here!

Originally Posted by sonicblu3zx3

speak for yourself, and don't include me in the we. I despise SUV's and I think they should be very heavily taxed since they use up so much more gas than a 4 cylindar does, not to mention almost everyone who drives one uses it for daily commute to work.... THOSE people are the stupid ones you mentioned.

I personally would never buy an SUV or a minivan, I'd never let myself have so many kids that I needed one. (No, I don't have a problem with kids or people in minivans, just saying I wouldnt get one myself and why...doh)

==! RANT WARNING !==


Ahhh, another of the brainwashed anti-SUV crowd.

Sure, let's all advocate taxing the crap out of everyone who chooses not to live the same way we do.

I could *always* us some more money! How about you?

On that basis alone, I just don't understand how you can *ever* be happy about forcing someone to give more of their hard earned money to the government.

Watch out, as what goes around, may come around! I'm sure there are people out there who think we should tax the crap out of the "senseless amount of money" you've spent on "unneeded cosmetic mods" to what they view as "perfectly functional car". How about an STI? Why does anyone need it? It uses more gas than a base Subaru! The FS turbo can consume way more gas than stock and is tuned run a bit rich (not as good for the environment). Should we tax the FS turbo out of existence?

If you earn the money and can afford to and want to spend a bunch of money modifying the looks of your car, I say go for it (even though after doing so once myself I now think it is, to quote you: "stupid").

If someone else earns the money and can afford to and wants to drive a SUV, Mustang, an EVO, or spend nearly $100,000 on a big V8 M-B, I say let them go for it. Feedom of personal choice is a good thing!

Unlike your perception, most of the thousands upon thousands of SUVs and vans in and around my suburbia are used for far more than single passenger commuting.

In fact our mini-van SAVES gas, saves road-wear, cuts pollution and reduces traffic. It saves us a whole lot of time running back and forth, too.

It's called car-pooling, and I'm talking Mom's (and Dad's) taxi, not about back and forth to work. We have 3 teen kids and take the Focus whenever it's just us, as it just makes sense.

But to soccer, ballet, school events, the park, martial arts, summer camp, plays, etc., etc., etc. our van is very often chock full of kids, when it is our turn to pick-up or drop off. Sometimes they are even two-up (double-buckled) in a single seat! If it wasn't for our van there would regularly have to be two or even three cars going to the same place at the same time, and/or our vehicle would often be on the road instead of sitting in the driveway!

My friend with the Suburban coaches kids teams and is often loaded with kids and sports equipment after practices and games. On practice days he will take it to work instead of having to drive all the way home in his Acura and then back out to the practice field in the Suburban. You'll see another friend of mine driving all across a 3-state area without another single person in his van, ever. What you won't see is all of the excellent medical equipment in the back of the vehicle that he sells and installs for a living.

My wife will take the Focus if it's just her and a couple of kids, but to be honest she feels it is safer driving the kids around it the van (and she is right). However she can't use the Focus when I am at work, and thus drives the van even when it is just her alone in the car. With payments & insurance, it isn't economically feasable to have an additional small car for her to drive whenever the van would be too much. Thus, a great many of the single passenger SUVs you see on the daily commute magically transform into Mom's or Dad's taxi on the way home!

We can't pull the pop-up tent trailer with the Focus. And teen kids have things called friends. Even simple family outings such as going to the movies or a picnic usually end up including at least 2 kids from other families. Can't do that in a Focus unless you take two cars!

Lastly, do you realise the current big a$$ SUV runs far cleaner with far less emissions than the econ-box cars of just 25-30 years ago?

[/Rant] <-- You were warned!

P.S. My wife made me promise her a 2-seater sports car when the kids are gone! (Hmm, but where will we put the grandkids?)

[focaljet-1]

Here is my stance:

There is a legitimate need for SUVs for a portion of the population. The problem is that many people buy them for status symbols only.

Of course I also say that anyone should be able to buy/drive anything they want.

I only wish that they would cease being status symbols so that the majority of the people that drive them would be the ones that actually need them. And that at the ones that don't would use their heads and drive something that didn't hog up the road, gas, etc.

[Fishflinger]

One thing about them. People have started moving father out to the suburb's suburbs and still feel the need to drive an overly large vehicle for the commute in.

Here in my office we have a lady with a couple of boys that play sports and she does drive a Suburban because of it. Her round trip to and from work is in excess of 60 miles if she does go the most direct route, but she still drives the Suburban with her as the only passenger 5 days a week. So you are looking at 300+ miles with one person in a vehicle capable of carrying 8 people. The problem is that is happening way too much now a days.
Part of it is lack of close in affordable housing in areas you would want to live in, part of it is the presumed status of driving an SUV.

Then luxury SUVs are something all together different, so if you want to talk evil that should be stamped out...

[H8SUVS]

I only hate suvs because of the people that buy them as status symbols and don't utilize them. Popular here in SoCal. Every other SUV is a Mercedes, Lexus, BMW.

Thing I hate most are the drivers that can't even keep their Sequoia in their lane.

Second is the fact that most people are driving Solo.

[Ducman69]

SUVs are chick cars now anyway, so the whole status symbol thing is going away on its own. And yeah, my mom drives one (Ford Escape).

Its become popular with people who feel insecure (at least on the roads). The SUV is bigger with some mass and lets you sit high away from danger (just yell "OMG THATS A HUGE RAT" at a party and watch all the chicks jump onto the highest platform they can find). Makes the 105 pound girlies feel safe and confident up on their perch.

Usually you'll see guys in the pickup trucks instead of SUVs around here now. Still serves no purpose for most that had to spring for the dually turbo-diesel with 25,000 pound towing capacity even though they don't own a trailer, but it makes em feel like they are rugged handy men... its like walking around with a leather toolbelt around your waist. *tim allen grunt*

I'm not a race-car driver either, but at least I drive my sports car quickly, and its optimized for paved roads which is where it is. So its a little less silly than driving around the SUV with five inch sidewalls and two feet of ground clearance when it'll never see worse than a gravel road once in its lifetime. Theres freedom of choice of course, but there is also freedom of speech (me mockin' yo ass if you look like one of the countless that bought an Excursion as your commuter heheh).

BTW, when was there ever a backlash against Minivans? The only negative thing you ever hear about them is that they completely lack sex-appeal... which is true sorry.

[Maxximtl]

It's all about the illusion of safety for a lot of people. People think because they are in a more substantial vehicle that they will be safer in the event of an accident (nevermind the fact that the vehicle is more accident prone to begin with.) There are families that need the utility of a SUV, but most don't.

The people that are really getting on my nerves right now are the diesel truck owners. These jackarses leave smoke screens at every stoplight and have no use for these beasts they have created. Plus, its gonna be hard to sell American's on "clean diesels" when billy-bob leaves his bully dog chipped Powerstroke on level 5 all the time.

[whiteboyslo]

all true. however:

for the mom that needs the minivan/SUV to haul around the 5+ kids to soccer practice but also commutes 50+ miles a day, boes it make sense economically for her to guy buy another car to commute in?

the cost/benefit of having another car that is cheaper on gas is usually not in favor of the 2nd car unless:

a) the daily commute is horrendously long

b) the other car is SUPER cheap

usually, it's not enough of either to justify the purchase, especially when you factor in the insurance and all other costs of ownership on that 2nd vehicle.

Mike

[hatched]

My beef is people that use them as commuters. Not so much RAV4s or Escapes, but Escalades, Excursions, etc. I understand people can do whatever they want to with their money, but it seems a bit excessive. And it's the fact that they're so prolific. You see tons of these vehicles every day.

I like to equate it be boiling a single serving of pasta in a 52 gallon drum of water. Yes, it'll work, but it's a bit excessive.

For example, I have a co-worker who has a husband, and I heard her saying that they're getting a dog so they want to get an SUV. What — dogs don't ride in sedans anymore?

Sometimes I wonder what people did before SUVs. Good lord — you can't possibly get four people and some gear into a car.

I really have no problem with people that have them and use them. Off-road enthusiasts, people that tow things, etc. However, why would you want a hulking beast of a vehicle to drive to and from work? Oh yeah; you want to sit high up for a "commanding view of the road" or "they're safer."

I think most of us have agreed the general car buying population in the U.S. is pretty stupid, and I would have to say the SUV thing is a perfect example. It's a shining example of the "all about me" and "who cares about you" mentality. No one bothers to think of anyone else these days. That's communist, right?

[Nells]

Originally Posted by H8SUVS

I only hate suvs because of the people that buy them as status symbols and don't utilize them. Popular here in SoCal. Every other SUV is a Mercedes, Lexus, BMW.

Thing I hate most are the drivers that can't even keep their Sequoia in their lane.

Second is the fact that most people are driving Solo.

If you are solo there is no reason to take any car, you should be forced to buy a moped!

edit: I would trade my Focus in for a minivan or SUC (preferably a Suburban) in a heartbeat if I could convince the husband. I only have one child. It would be pointless to keep another vehicle around for my daily commute, and I'm sure people would bitch about me just driving one child around in it too. You know what though? I really don't care nor do I need to justify my car purchase to anyone (although I will in a second).
You (not you specific) look at us and see a family of 3. What on earth does a family of 3 need a minivan or an SUV for? Well we are an active family. We have three large dogs and currently cannot fit everyone in the Focus if the dogs come with us. I do a lot of home improvements myself. While it is true that a brand new front door in the packaging WILL fit in the Focus that is all that will fit. I could truly use the extra room at times. I am a Girl Scout leader. If I had an SUV I could fit 6-7 children in my car instead of 3. That would be incredibly helpful at times and to be honest we could take more field trips because of it (which we otherwise couldn't because parents refuse to help out). My daughter plays hockey and when I can, hubby and I do too. Have you ever tried fitting 3 people, 3 full sized hockey bags and a couple of sticks in a Focus hatchback? Yeah it doesn't work.
BUT I'm just a mother of one, so it would be pointless and seemingly irresponsible of me to purchase a minivan or SUV, wouldn't it.
/rant-sorry

[Jugomugo]

I just tell people that when they drive their H2/H3, Expedition, etc... they are supporting terrorism. They usually give me an odd look.

[whiteboyslo]

Originally Posted by Jugomugo

I just tell people that when they drive their H2/H3, Expedition, etc... they are supporting terrorism. They usually give me an odd look.

because until you say that to them while riding your bicycle that was made from wood, you're a pot calling a kettle black.


Mike

[Ducman69]

BTW, one thing I'm not on board with though...

Since when are SUVs better at transporting people than wagons or vans? Why do you need a vehicle that differentiates itself from the others by having blunt truck-like front end, truck tires, and gobs of ground clearance?

We are talking about picking up kids from soccer practice, not from the set of survivor right?

The SUV thing really wasn't that lame until everyone's mom started doing it. Back when it was just one or two families out in the country that did it, nobody cared about those offroad barges.


If you took an SUV and made it aerodynamic and with street tires and a lower CoG for improved handling... voila the wagon is born: 29 mpg highway...

[Jugomugo]

Originally Posted by whiteboyslo

because until you say that to them while riding your bicycle that was made from wood, you're a pot calling a kettle black.

Sure. But when I'm getting 33mpg and they get 10-12, who's requiring more gas?

[whiteboyslo]

Originally Posted by Jugomugo

Sure. But when I'm getting 33mpg and they get 10-12, who's requiring more gas?

i'm not denying that you're not "supporting terrorism" (still don't buy into that BS, btw) as much as he is. i'm just saying that the fact that you don't do it as much doesn't make you less guilty.

that's like lighting up a joint and then turning to the guy next to you who's snorting up a line and saying "hey man! don't you know that stuff is illegal?"

Mike

[focaljet-1]

The average American car buyer thinks wagons are un-hip.

But really, the joke's on them.

They don't realize that they are Euro-cool.

[OmniFocus]

I have a greedier stance on improper SUV use.

I'll start with the following points:

1) Used properly (to tow/transport/haul) they are great.
2) I don't care about what people choose to do with their money.

At some point we ARE going to run out of oil with which to power our vehicles. Since I'm a car nut, my hobby and life is based around the consumption of oil. This means that whatever I need to do to extend my hobby for as long as possible, I'm willing to do. Within reason, of course.

That's my take on it. I only want to slow oil consumption to save more of it for me. Yes, I'm a greedy ass.

I will say that I'm always interested in alternative fuels, but only for the same greedy purposes. As long as I'm having fun in a vehicle that I can afford and is enjoyable to drive, all is good.

[hatched]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

BTW, one thing I'm not on board with though...

Since when are SUVs better at transporting people than wagons or vans? Why do you need a vehicle that differentiates itself from the others by having blunt truck-like front end, truck tires, and gobs of ground clearance?

We are talking about picking up kids from soccer practice, not from the set of survivor right?
.

AMEN.

The SUV sell is also very much about perception. It's about the idea that an SUV will be able to take you and your family anywhere at any time with anything inside or towed behind it.

Look at the marketing. The commercials showing the SUV with people in it going to some remote area to go swimming or canoeing; blazing down an unpaved trail to have a picnic; or scaling snow-capped mountains (of course, just up the side of the mountain; no road needed) to go snowboarding. In actuality, 5% of SUVs ever leave the pavement (according to "The Unstoppable SUV," by Keith Naughton. Newsweek, July 2, 2001). Most people aren't going to take a $35,000+ vehicle off road, let alone do they know where to go off roading. And no -- driving down a dirt road does not count as "off roading."

But then again, we know minivans and wagons "aren't cool." Then again, a gas-guzzling, poor-performing, crappy-riding, body-on-frame SUV is an excellent tool for driving yourself on your 100-mile commute, or to take your kids to the mall.

Ah the power of marketing.

EDIT: I should stress that I really think off-roading is cool and fun. It has been around forever, and isn't going anywhere. It's not the people that use SUVs or trucks for work, off roading, or for towing things that I have a problem with. It's the the rabid consumption of fuel, false pretenses about saftey, and overall excess that I don't like.

[ElPogoLoco]

I like SUVs and Trucks. I do not like big SUVs though. Which is why the wife and I have an Escape as our family vehicle and also why we will be trading it in on a Hybrid Version very soon.

[bigdaddyzx3]

They have their place, but are unfortunately not used for what they are intended in most instances.

We own a minivan. With the minivan we are able to haul the entire family AND all of our camping gear when necessary. Or we can take our family, and friends when we are all going to the same place.

However, when it's just the 4 of us, and we don't have to haul anything, just going somewhere, we usually go in the Focus.

Reasonable use I think.

[SilverSVT]

Originally Posted by focaljet-1

The average American car buyer thinks wagons are un-hip.

But really, the joke's on them.

They don't realize that they are Euro-cool.

But your typical American gives less then a **** if its Euro-cool...by saying that, your falling victim to what the SUV has/had...image.
(l'd rock a Vovlo V50 T5 AWD, but at nearly 37K loaded, I'd get a Edge/MKZ instead!)

Thats what it boils down too...I think alot of people here bash SUV's because they never driven one or just hate the the "me-too" image that they have.

I can see why people would want one or own one, but its not for me..plus I can go out and borrow a Explorer, Ranger, F-250 or a 4Runner if I need to pick up something that doesnt fit in the Mustang.

[Nells]

Originally Posted by focaljet-1

The average American car buyer thinks wagons are un-hip.

But really, the joke's on them.

They don't realize that they are Euro-cool.

How many station wagons seat 8? (honest question I really don't know)

[ElPogoLoco]

Originally Posted by bigdaddyzx3

They have their place, but are unfortunately not used for what they are intended in most instances.

We own a minivan. With the minivan we are able to haul the entire family AND all of our camping gear when necessary. Or we can take our family, and friends when we are all going to the same place.

However, when it's just the 4 of us, and we don't have to haul anything, just going somewhere, we usually go in the Focus.

Reasonable use I think.

Very true. We drive the Escape on trips with me, the wife, and our kids, 4YO and 1.5YO. But whenever we go local or are just cruising around, we take the Focus.

[Fishflinger]

Originally Posted by Jugomugo

I just tell people that when they drive their H2/H3, Expedition, etc... they are supporting terrorism. They usually give me an odd look.

That would be like telling coffee drinkers they are supporting cocaine cartels. I'm sure there is a percentage that does support those activities but it is most likely small.

It would be best to call them tree killers or something like that

[CheaperSleeper]

They are most definately evil but I will not supprt efforts to compell you not to drive them. I will merely maintain my present policy of cursing at you and assuming you are stupid.

[whiteboyslo]

Originally Posted by CheaperSleeper

They are most definately evil but I will not supprt efforts to compell you not to drive them. I will merely maintain my present policy of cursing at you and assuming you are stupid.

as long as you're OK with it us thinking the exact same thing back at you, we're cool.

Mike