Zetec billet main caps - Anyone still make them?

[dhardison]

Any company out there still make billet main caps for the Zetec? I see them listed on Jay Racing's site, but they show as 'sold out'.

Thanks,
Dan

[Terrible1]

We have a company that we deal with at the machine shop that will custom build a set for the Zetec. I'll have to look them up again cause I can't remember their name.
I spoke to the owner/designer at the PRI show last year and they had a couple sets hanging around for the Zetec there at the booth.
Not really sure it's necessary on a PW setup though. I just plan on using ARP main studs which in my opinion will hold just fine.

[dhardison]

Agreed, they're not necessary for a PW setup. I'm looking at these for my winter turbo build. At a minimum I'm going to pull the factory main bolts and replace with ARP mains studs which as I understand will require line honing of the mains. Billet mains will require line boring and honing of the mains which will be quite a bit more $$$ for machine work.

[Terrible1]

You're ditching the PW?!?!?!?! TRAITOR!!!!!

[dhardison]

^^ Maybe I can feed the PW with the turbo.....

[pzev04boy]

I've never heard of anyone or seen anyone break the stock caps. (not with proof anyway) Supposedly the stock caps could fail if they walked under high load / power but if you put arp main studs in these should keep the caps from moving.

[pzev04boy]

Originally Posted by dhardison

^^ Maybe I can feed the PW with the turbo.....

Yes you can. Do a google search on compound boost.

They make for a very efficient setup.

Typically a stock longblock 03-04 cobra enigne can make about 600-650 whp with a kenne bell or whipple blower but that is about all the motor can take safely. You can ditch a blower and run turbo and make about 800 whp safely.

But recently Hellion came up with their hellraiser kit which is designed to be run compound. It's a twin turbo kit that pushed air through the factory eaton & stock pulley.

They made 1,188 rwhp and 1,015 rwtq-through a stock engine including the factory cast-iron exhaust manifolds.




http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...bra/index.html

[500whpfocus]

who is the company....i am curious!

[Ja-Red]

Totally a waste of time and money. Have you ever seen a broken cap?

[K STYLEZ]

^^^ What he said. Have yet to see a broken cap or reason to believe that they were not substantial enough.

That said, Pro-Gram used to make them.

http://www.pro-gram.com/

I dont see em on their site, but I know they did make them at one time.

[dhardison]

Thanks for the replies. You guys saved me some $$$$.

[Terrible1]

Originally Posted by K STYLEZ

^^^ What he said. Have yet to see a broken cap or reason to believe that they were not substantial enough.

That said, Pro-Gram used to make them.

http://www.pro-gram.com/

I dont see em on their site, but I know they did make them at one time.

Yep these were the guys I talked too. Great group of people but just not sure the extra investment is necessary.....
Now for the twin charged setup THAT would be tons of fun You've got my head turning with ideas DAMN YOU!!!

[starfuryt550]

I was always wondering about these if they were necessary for a fully built turbo setup on our cars.

Of course, Tom always says you need to buy his main caps, everyone else says no, go figure

[pzev04boy]

Originally Posted by starfuryt550

I was always wondering about these if they were necessary for a fully built turbo setup on our cars.

Of course, Tom always says you need to buy his main caps, everyone else says no, go figure

You will break the crankshaft long before the main caps with arp studs.

Also. RPM is a huge factor in crank, block, rod & main caps staying together.

If you were able to get a 500whp zetec that only needed to rev to 6500 rpms, it would outlast a 400whp zetec that reved to 7500 rpms.

Just don't shoot for more than 400 whp and you won't have anything to worry about.

[pzev04boy]

Originally Posted by Terrible1

Now for the twin charged setup THAT would be tons of fun You've got my head turning with ideas DAMN YOU!!!

It would be the absolute best powerband you could ever get from a focus. Low end courtesy of pw and tons of midrange and top end courtesy of compund turbo boost.

[Terrible1]

Originally Posted by pzev04boy

It would be the absolute best powerband you could ever get from a focus. Low end courtesy of pw and tons of midrange and top end courtesy of compund turbo boost.

You aren't helping me at all

[dhardison]

Originally Posted by pzev04boy

It would be the absolute best powerband you could ever get from a focus. Low end courtesy of pw and tons of midrange and top end courtesy of compund turbo boost.

How much trouble do you think this combo would be to tune? Seems as though the MAF would lose it's mind with all the extra air flow from the turbo passing by.

Would it be as simple as plumbing the boosted output of the turbo to the intake of the PWSC???? Could it possibly be that simple?

I'm VERY interested in a combo like this! I was looking to sell my PWSC kit to pay for a portion of the turbo kit, but now........... Damn you pzev04boy!

Good info here: http://www.hellionpowersystems.com/i...boost-resource

[pzev04boy]

Tuning shouldn't be too difficult. A 3 inch maf tube with a mafia would still work. It would be ideally done blow thru between the turbo & blower. You would want to intercool the turbo as well. Air to air with a procharger focus intercooler would probably be the only way to fit it in. Or possibly a bigger heat exchanger and use a barrel intercooler for the turbo.

[Lancer211]

This discussion has suddenly turned into pure, unadulterated WIN.

[dhardison]

Originally Posted by pzev04boy

Tuning shouldn't be too difficult. A 3 inch maf tube with a mafia would still work. It would be ideally done blow thru between the turbo & blower. You would want to intercool the turbo as well. Air to air with a procharger focus intercooler would probably be the only way to fit it in. Or possibly a bigger heat exchanger and use a barrel intercooler for the turbo.

I know this thread is going off-topic but I like where it's going!

An intercooler for the turbo is a definite must! My thoughts were to increase the capacity of the PWSC intercooler tank along with passing the fluid through a 'cool can'. I would use the PWSC radiator (maybe upgraded a bit) and then a barrel air/water intercooler pre-TB.

Since he's done a LOT of research on this subject, I was talking with Duncan concerning a blow-through MAF vs a draw-through MAF with a compound boost configuration (I've paraphrased a bunch of his info below). He mentioned that a blow-through MAF would create MAF reversion. "MAF reversion is what happens when you close the throttle and the turbo is spooled. The charge reverses and flows backwards through the MAF which causes some really rich fueling gremlins."

"Whereas a blow-through MAF configuration can be used pre-turbo with a recirculating bypass (which would stop MAF reversion). The down-side to a blow-through MAF configuration might be the long distance or air flow between the MAF and the combustion chambers. It will require some good fine tuning to make it run nicely with such a lengthy delay between indicated airflow and actual airflow at the intake valves."

Anyone have thoughts on this draw-through vs. blow-through MAF subject with respect to compound boost?

Dan

[blackbird]

I'd personally look into a properly sized turbo before trying a twin-charged type setup unless you're doing it primarily for show or just to be "different". Even if you were able to get slightly better low-end response and torque there's still that minor issue of traction on a front wheel drive car (unless you're building a drag-only car with massive slicks up front).

There are many turbochargers that will still make decent power down low and be able to support some healthy numbers up top. The key to optimizing the powerband is to make sure everything is designed to work together and not just start buying parts and slapping them on the car. I'm not trying to shoot down using a supercharger and turbocharger if that's what you want to try and since it would be pretty cool just from the engineering standpoint, but it's more of an engineering novelty.

It's somewhat similar to using twin turbochargers on a small displacement four cylinder. I've seen it done and it does technically work, but usually isn't the best solution for the desired power levels and power delivery characteristics. The only benefit for you is that you already have a supercharger setup installed on the car.

If you're just looking for a flat, wide power band that's also capable of big power numbers and wanted to try something different you could also look into some of the variable geometry turbochargers. Garrett's Slidevane and conventional VNT (variable nozzle turbo) and Holset's VGT (variable geometry turbo) setups are starting to become a little more common in OEM applications and you can now find them showing up more on the used market as a result. They can alter the effective A/R of the exhaust housing to spool great down low like a smaller turbo and then open up on top to flow more and make big power by minimizing restrictions.

[dhardison]

^^ Thanks Eric, I appreciate the great info!

My Focus is a dedicated track car and my goal is to be in the 350-375Whp range. That being said I know I could go out and purchase or put together a turbo-only kit that would definitely put down those numbers. My PWSC currently puts down ~205Whp, but with a head gasket change and some minor tune tweaking it should be able to deliver 225ish. My hopes with a 'compund boost' configuration would be to add ~100-150Whp to that number to get me in the desired range (with a built short-block).

The reality is I really have no idea if the compund boost configuration would get me where I want to be Whp-wise. That's the unknown.... I guess part of it is to be a little 'different', but I also throughly enjoy the engineering of such a configuration (ALMOST as much as the result).

From a cost standpoint I could go out and purchase, for example, a TopSpeed tuner kit for $3500-$4000 (plus tuning) and be in that Whp range. However as you noted I already have the PWSC, so if I utilize a somewhat less expensive turbo setup I could save some $$$ in the short run, have some fun fabbing/engineering/documenting the compound boost install and maaaaybe get the results I want.

The other thing to consider, since this is a dedicated track car, is the additional weight a compund boost configuration would add. A stand-alone turbo kit would definitely be lighter overall. Decisions, decisions.....

Tanks,
Dan

[blackbird]

The weight is one factor but another big one for a race car is the added complexity. I've seldom found that when you make things more complex they become more reliable.

Just a few other random thoughts to go along with your thinking, when you consider the cost of adding a turbo kit you're not really going to save much money by going "small" vice a setup that can support those power goals alone. We're talking maybe a few hundred dollar difference in a smaller frame turbo and a slightly larger unit that can support those power goals. The requirements for an exhaust manifold, oil and coolant lines, intake plumbing, etc. are going to be the same whether you're tacking on a smaller turbo inline with your blower or ditch it completely. With that in mind and with the flow and heat limitation of the M62 blower in the Powerworks kits in trying to get more power out of it, you might be better off from a logical standpoint selling it and going straight to the turbo kit as you'd be able to recoup some of the cost and put towards the turbo setup.

Another issue you might find is that the liquid-to-air core in the Powerworks kit (which is a Fluidyne unit if I recall correctly) is already being pushed to the efficiency limit for that core from what I've seen. Hotter air into the blower equals hotter air out. Even if you added a front mount air-to-air intercooler after the turbo but before the supercharger, the inlet temps to the blower are still going to be higher than ambient in most cases.

The power a turbocharger makes is not "free" since it sits in the flow path of air in and out of the engine, causing a restriction on the exhaust side and requiring the utilization of some power for the engine to pump the spent exhaust gasses out. The supercharger also requires energy in the form of having to be driven off the crankshaft. Combine them both and you're now sapping power off the crank and placing a restriction in the exhaust path. If you're using a smaller turbo because you also have the blower that would normally mean a smaller exhaust housing that increases restriction on the exhaust side.

There's a lot of little things like that to think about before deciding which path to take. When sitting down and doing a list of pros and cons for each setup I would imagine you'll find more cons with the twin-charged setup. As a project car when you get a lot of the enjoyment from the process of building it, I think it would be neat and different. From a functional standpoint and the end goal is to use this as a race car I personally see too many down sides.

Weight, complexity, cost, reliability, tuning, and on and on. You'll have to deal with many of those issues no matter what route you take, but think carefully about your goals and how each of those will be affected with each setup.


And for 350-375 whp and maybe even slightly higher power levels you should be fine on the stock caps, but if ultimate reliability is a concern and a set of billet ones fell into my lap I wouldn't have a problem using them, but I'd still suspect something else would probably fail first.

[pzev04boy]

Party pooper

[dhardison]

Originally Posted by blackbird

The weight is one factor but another big one for a race car is the added complexity. I've seldom found that when you make things more complex they become more reliable.

Thanks for bringing me back to ground level, no, seriously. Reliability is a big factor for me and this would be a complex design.

Originally Posted by blackbird

<snip>...you might be better off from a logical standpoint selling it and going straight to the turbo kit as you'd be able to recoup some of the cost and put towards the turbo setup.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by blackbird

<snip>...There's a lot of little things like that to think about before deciding which path to take. When sitting down and doing a list of pros and cons for each setup I would imagine you'll find more cons with the twin-charged setup. As a project car when you get a lot of the enjoyment from the process of building it, I think it would be neat and different. From a functional standpoint and the end goal is to use this as a race car I personally see too many down sides.

Weight, complexity, cost, reliability, tuning, and on and on. You'll have to deal with many of those issues no matter what route you take, but think carefully about your goals and how each of those will be affected with each setup.


And for 350-375 whp and maybe even slightly higher power levels you should be fine on the stock caps, but if ultimate reliability is a concern and a set of billet ones fell into my lap I wouldn't have a problem using them, but I'd still suspect something else would probably fail first.

Eric you bring up a LOT of good points, many of which I had not considered. This might be a better project for a street car or DD, but not necessarily for a track car. Thank you VERY much for your input/info!

Dan